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Google should be broken up, say European MPs

bbc.com

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Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#71

Post by datashovel »

kjjw wrote: post #58
datashovel wrote: post #47

I kind of feel sorry for Europe, that their leaders can't see the enormous positive impact Google is having on the world. And in general I hate behemoth corporations. Google is different. The moment they start behaving like other Fortune 100 companies is the moment I stop rooting for them. There are still too many complacent monopolies in the world to break up Google. Unfortunately Google is the only one with the mon…

The 'there are other worse things so we can ignore this' argument? Really?

Forgive my ignorance. What are we ignoring?

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#72

Post by daveoflynn »

vixen99 wrote: post #39
matthewmacleod wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only real monopolies are those which are protected by government regulation or control. This is utter, objective nonsense. Look at Microsoft as a case in point, which had a near 100% market share of desktop operating systems. Nobody would claim that wasn't a monopoly. Google is out there on the freewheeling internet competing. It has a broad portfolio of products, but their main revenue stream - ads from search e…

You mean the unelected officials who decide these matters in non-smoke filled rooms in an organisation that hasn't been passed by its own auditors in more than 13 years (a business would have been taken to court by now) and has a current black hole of £34 billion which has willy-nilly to be filled from national coffers - no questions asked. All irrelevant to the subject under discussion? I don't think so.

You're talking about European Commission, not the European Parliment. This action is being initiated by the directly-elected[1] Members of the European Parliment.

For readers more familiar with the US, the closest analogy is European Parliment == Congress, European Comission == Executive Branch [2]. Far from exact, but will give you a flavour of the reason the parent comment is so off base.

[1] In the countries I'm familar with they're all directly elected. Not sure if that's the case in all member states.

[2] Structure of the EU: http://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-390500.htm

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#73

Post by lotsofmangos »

vince_refiti wrote: post #23
oblio wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When debating pro-against EU, we should never forget how pre-EU Europe looked like. We've been incredibly good at killing each other. I'd pick a huge beauracracy over arms races any day of the week.

Don't they still subsidize their agricultural sector, and dump stuff on the international markets and hurt non-EU farmers? I consider that to be very uncompetitive.

The USA subsidises its agricultural sector, I agree that the EU does do it more. But then Japan puts in more direct subsidy to its agricultural sector than the whole of the EU. Still, whatever your view on subsidies, it is a much better thing for people to be complaining about than Europe being on fire. Again.

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#74

Post by pjc50 »

Dewie wrote: post #45
Donzo wrote: post #8

Not that it'd ever happen, but I would very much enjoy watching what would unfold if Google ceased to provide services to these nations. Can you imagine the backlash?

I seem to remember that I used Altavista before google.com. I guess I would move on to another search engine. DuckDuckGo might be good enough, I guess, and there's also Bing (I guess DDGo uses Bing?). Most people would use whatever search engine that the browser than defaulted to. Maybe they'd still find what they want. People would have to find other video sites to procrastinate and entertain themselves than YouTube…

The European alternative to Youtube would be Dailymotion, a French company part-owned by Orange.

People are used to getting the occasional "This video is unavailable in your country" failure from Youtube; this might be less of a problem with a local operator.

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#75

Post by danielbarla »

gchp wrote: post #28
agd wrote: post #7

> Google has around 90% market share for search in Europe It's a complete monopoly and the barrier to entry is huge. Might be a good thing to break them up.

I agree that its a monopoly, though I find it funny that serious time & consideration is being given to discuss breaking them up. Google are a company who have a product (search, among many). Their product is successful (many people use search). Competitors obviously find it hard to break into the market, and want to make that easier. Is this not how business works? A company creates a product and tries to make it as…

Regardless of your feelings, various countries have thought it a good idea to set up antitrust law and competition laws for just such situations (see [1], [2]).

The logic is that with a large enough market share, a company can keep perpetually dominating the market purely based on status quo, to the detriment of consumers. Related is anti-competitive practices, e.g. where a company might strong-arm "partners" into dropping competitors, or otherwise coercing them into a highly unfair situation for the competitor. This is particularly applicable to companies which try to use their monopoly in one area to leverage a huge advantage in another area (e.g. the famous case of Microsoft using their OS advantage to gain advantage in the browser space - again, you may have different feelings about the issue).

So basically, what we're talking about is a situation where a company is effectively and practically un-challengable primarily due to its current market share, and many countries recognizing this as a problem, and having laws against this type of thing.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#76

Post by dghf »

fear91 wrote: post #24

Google's grip on search is absolutely enormous, especially in Europe. They literally decide lives of thousands of people when they change their algorithms. With one update, they kill thousands of websites someone lives off and then they replace them with big brands or their own services. This isn't healthy for anyone and I wish there was more competition. It would do a lot of good to everyone.

But there is competition. Bing, DuckDuckGo, even Yahoo's still hanging in there.

There are no technological or commercial barriers to switching search engines: no-one is making people use Google search (except I guess maybe on Android devices or Chromebooks -- I don't have and have never used either, so I don't know).

People use it because either (a) it returns better results or (b) inertia.

If it's (a), using it is a rational choice (though one that could be trumped by privacy or ethical concerns).

If it's (b), eventually they'll be knocked off their perch by a better search engine.

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#77

Post by matthewmacleod »

gchp wrote: post #56
matthewmacleod wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misunderstanding the issue here – monopoly isn't a problem, but abuse of it is. To use your example – your company makes car types, and has a monopoly. You then branch out, and start making cars as well. And you redesign your tyres such that they're only compatible with your car. Oh, and the roads everywhere only work with your tyres. That's an abuse of monopoly, and that's what the target is. Look at that fac…

Fair point. I didn't pick up on this from the article. It's this exact reason that I use Firefox & DuckDuckGo. I based my statement on this: > The European Parliament has voted in favour of breaking Google up, as a solution to complaints that it favours is own services in search results. The key part there being ..it favours its own services in search results . In my opinion they are free to rank search results in wh…

In my opinion they are free to rank search results in whatever manner they wish.

I get what you are saying. The problem arises when something like Google is the front page of the Internet for so many people – a monopoly, essentially becoming similar to a public service.

Let's say they decide to rank their own services high, and push competitors down the list. That's a real problem, because it artificially raises the barrier to entry to other market participants.

I can very easily see this becoming a problem with Google as they move into more areas. And it's quite possible that breakup isn't the best solution, but we really should look at what the answers might be before it's too late.

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#78

Post by bad_user »

Having a monopoly is not a good reason to break them up. Being a monopoly is not a crime in itself, because as a fact of nature, monopolies happen.

Microsoft was accused of having a monopoly that abused its power contrary to the Sherman Antitrust Act, however they went through a lawsuit for this. Therefore as an European I'm disappointed by how the European Parliament is handling this, especially because some of their reasoning I'm reading about in this article are flawed. So where's the lawsuit in this case?

If the EU wants to ensure a level playing field for rivals, then maybe the EU should lower its taxes instead and do more to encourage startups. Because really, it's not the presence of Google in Europe that prevents rivalries from happening.

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#79

Post by Dewie »

pjc50 wrote: post #74
Dewie wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to remember that I used Altavista before google.com. I guess I would move on to another search engine. DuckDuckGo might be good enough, I guess, and there's also Bing (I guess DDGo uses Bing?). Most people would use whatever search engine that the browser than defaulted to. Maybe they'd still find what they want. People would have to find other video sites to procrastinate and entertain themselves than YouTube…

The European alternative to Youtube would be Dailymotion, a French company part-owned by Orange. People are used to getting the occasional "This video is unavailable in your country" failure from Youtube; this might be less of a problem with a local operator.

It's local to France, at least.

Re: Google should be broken up, say European MPs

#80

Post by CmonDev »

cbeach wrote: post #13

I was blocked indefinitely from Adsense by Google's faulty algorithms (without explanation and with appeals rejected without explanation). I lost the revenue I'd earnt that month, and soon realised Google holds a monopoly in this space, and no one else offered a comparable service. I'm all for Google's stronghold to be broken. reply

That's the thing. And the "open web" doesn't help at all. At least in mobile/PC there is an option to move between App Store, Play Store, Windows Store and Steam.
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