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Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

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Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not getting it. Are you saying that some taxes should be ringfenced and only used for the specific purpose of education (and by extension other taxes to other things), and that taxpayers get to see precisely how their proportion of taxes are being spent on that particular thing? In any representative democracy that I know of, the budget (including tax income and government outgoings such as education) is ha…

> I'm still not getting it. In Europe, the main group of tax payers are eating their own dog food by sending their kids to public schools. When the public schools their kids go to sucks, they know first hand and lobby to get it fixed. In contrast, the main group of tax payers in the US are sending their kids to private schools. When the local public schools sucks, it doesn't have the slightest immediate impact on the…

I still fail to see the influential connection between the taxpayer's opinion and the service his tax pays for. A rich guy who pays tax and doesn't avail of the state's education is in a minority, regardless of how much tax he pays.

As far as I can see, the only way the argument works is if money is what's doing the electing, rather than individual voters (as in, we don't have "one man one vote" but rather we have "mo' money mo' votes" like in private companies). If that's the case, then that's a way bigger story than "rich guy doesn't care that his tax dollars make good public education".

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#72
post #57

I was surprised teacher salaries did not come into it. From my relatively uninformed viewpoint, I would think offering more money would give you a better choice of candidates. Look at investment banks. They offer lots of money, and they get the pick of a large proportion of the top graduates. Here's a conversation I had with a young man in Switzerland: Me: You seem like a smart, well educated guy (Kid speaks 4 langua…

Getting better candidates is not the only problem. Keeping them is the real trick. I have several friends who've ventured into teaching out of various more or less idealistic reasons. Most of them quit for reasons that have nothing to do with money and everything to do with the terrible working conditions. Constant micromanagement, zero control over lessons or lesson plans, endless stream of tests they had to teach t…

This sounds right. The guy I was talking to seemed to think conditions were good. A lot of debate in certain countries carries an undertone that teachers are lazy, which can't be useful for retention.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are either igonorant or are being dishonest. Most states don't have county-level school districts; and definitely heavily populated ones do not. The district is either rich or poor. Example: mercer island is just across I90 from Seattle in king county, and is one of the richest districts in the nation (since mercer island is rich). The PTA BS is just made up libertarian propaganda (blame the poor people for being…

I live in the 10th most populated state and our school districts are at the county level. I know the 24th most populated state also has districts at the county level. I tried to find statistics based on state, but could not find any data. (A quick google seems to imply that CA, NY, and WA do not do it based on county, but it's hard to say that most states do with only 5 measurements.) I'm not really sure why your pos…

School districts and towns that they correspond to are often setup explicitly to prevent equitable distribution of resources. It is very human nature to do that in the "got mine get lost" way. property taxes are just s bad way at it (and WA does much better than most states).

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#74
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is segregated in the states by rich and poor districts; it is a felony to enroll your kid in the wrong school.

So you're really hitting on the different qualities that can exist inside of public education here, and it's definitely a state-by-state issue (although universally I'd say there are systemic differences between the quality of public urban education vs. suburban vs. rural). While that's definitely a topic of concern and a big problem, the fact remains that that is still publicly funded education. "Rich districts" are…

There is thst: society benefits from educated kids, but we've managed to create a system segregated by socioeconomic factors that tend to inhibit social mobility, which then describes why the US can simultaneously have the best and worst schools in the developed world at the same time.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#75
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the 10th most populated state and our school districts are at the county level. I know the 24th most populated state also has districts at the county level. I tried to find statistics based on state, but could not find any data. (A quick google seems to imply that CA, NY, and WA do not do it based on county, but it's hard to say that most states do with only 5 measurements.) I'm not really sure why your pos…

School districts and towns that they correspond to are often setup explicitly to prevent equitable distribution of resources. It is very human nature to do that in the "got mine get lost" way. property taxes are just s bad way at it (and WA does much better than most states).

[deleted]

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#76

It's not. It's on par with the rest of the western world[1], maybe except Finland which is an outlier whether you include the US or not. At least as of 2009, I doubt it somehow collapsed since. Not to mention higher education, where Americans lead. Although judging by tuitions perhaps a little too far in the diminishing returns region. [1] http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou...

This thread seems already to have aged off the front page, but it is dismaying to see that lazy blog post from 2010 still cited here on Hacker News years after other participants have pointed to better sources on international educational comparisons. The author's main point seems to be found in the opening paragraph serving as the thesis statement of his blog post: "What I have learned recently and want to share with you is that once we correct (even crudely) for demography in the 2009 PISA scores, American students outperform Western Europe by significant margins and tie with Asian students."

But this is factually incorrect.

1. American students are not outperforming Western Europe by significant margins nor are they tied with Asian students. The blog post is based on data from the PISA 2009 survey. But the United States National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) International Activities Program displays results about high-performing students from PIRLS 2006, TIMSS 2007, and PISA 2009,

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/reports/2012-hps-mr...

and shows European, Asian, and Oceanic countries outperforming the United States in producing high-performing students in reading, in mathematics (especially), and in science.

Looking at the comparable chart about low-performing students

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/reports/2012-lps-mr...

shows, especially in the teenage age range after longer exposure to formal schooling, that the United States has much higher percentages of low-performing students in those subjects than countries in several other regions of the world, again especially in mathematics. Comparing national averages with United States population group averages in the manner proposed by the author is misleading, and he should have considered other data sources.

2. The author, a person who did not grow up in the United States, has acquired English as a working language for his personal writing and scholarly publications after growing up knowing two other Indo-European languages. It amazes me that he didn't even point out that young people in the United States are especially unlikely to have strong foreign-language instruction in school. Way back in the 1980s, the book The Tongue-tied American: Confronting the Foreign Language Crisis,

http://www.amazon.com/The-Tongue-Tied-American-Confronting-L...

which I read soon after it was published, pointed out that the United States appears to be the only country on earth in which it is possible to earn a Ph.D. degree without acquiring working knowledge of a second language. In those days, one way in which school systems in most countries outdid the United States school system, economic level of countries being comparable, was that an American could go to many different places and expect university graduates (and perhaps high school graduates as well) to have a working knowledge of English for communication about business or research. I still surprise Chinese visitors to the United States, in 2012, if I join in on their Chinese-language conversations. No one expects Americans to learn any language other than English. Elsewhere in the world, the public school system is tasked with imparting at least one foreign language (most often English) and indeed a second language of school instruction (as in Taiwan or in Singapore) that in my generation was not spoken in most pupils' homes, as well as all the usual primary and secondary school subjects. At a minimum, that's one way in which schools in most parts of the world take on a tougher task than the educational goals of United States schools. So if learners in those countries merely equal American levels of achievement in national-language reading, in mathematics, and in science, with additional knowledge of English as a second language, that is already an impressive achievement. As long as international educational comparisons don't include comparisons of second language ability acquired by schooling, it will be easy for the United States to rank misleadingly high in those comparisons.

3. Moreover, the author's conclusion is suspect even on the basis of the PISA mathematics scores, correcting thoughtfully rather than crudely for demographic factors. More experienced educational researchers who published a peer-reviewed popular article, "Teaching Math to the Talented"

http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/

dug into the same PISA 2009 data and reached a differing conclusion: "Unfortunately, we found that the percentage of students in the U.S. Class of 2009 who were highly accomplished in math is well below that of most countries with which the United States generally compares itself. No fewer than 30 of the 56 other countries that participated in the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) math test, including most of the world’s industrialized nations, had a larger percentage of students who scored at the international equivalent of the advanced level on our own National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) tests."

The PISA program itself has published summary reports suggesting, based on the same 2009 data, that the United States schools underperform relative to levels of public spending on the school system,

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/49685503.pdf

with the report noting that "successful school systems in high-income economies tend to prioritize the quality of teachers over the size of classes," which is not the policy in most states of the United States. Based on those data, a scholar commented, "There are countries which don't get the bang for the bucks, and the U.S. is one of them,"

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2003-09-16-edu...

The PISA program issued another report on how disadvantaged students overcome their backgrounds in national school systems,

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproducts/pisa2009/48165173.pdf

and the United States underperforms the average of OECD countries in this regard too.

4. The blog author suggests comparing countries as "Asian" or otherwise belonging to a United States "race" category with students in the United States classified by the current official federal "race" categories. The latest TIMSS report,

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013009_1.pdf

consistent with a previous TIMSS report available when the author wrote his blog post, shows that the "Asian" average score in the United States in eighth grade mathematics (568) indicates American students underperform, not tie with" students from Singapore (611), Taiwan (606), and Korea (613). The group average comparisons understate the large gap in the percentage of students who reach the highest level of performance in the high-performing countries, which is visually quite apparent in the national comparison tables (e.g., Table 4, page 11 of the link immediately above). Similarly, "white" United States students mostly tie with, not "outperform" students from a variety of countries mostly inhabited by people of European ethnicity.

This methodology is "crude," to use the author's term, because the categories "Asian" and "black" in the United States do not have the same composition of persons from varying ethnic and language backgrounds as the categories "from an Asian country" or "from an African country."

The Census Bureau says

"The U.S. Census Bureau collects race data in accordance with guidelines provided by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB), and these data are based on self-identification. The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. In addition, it is recognized that the categories of the race item include racial and national origin or sociocultural groups. People may choose to report more than one race to indicate their racial mixture, such as 'American Indian' and 'White.' People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race."

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_RHI525211.htm

5. The blog post author is counting on readers not to challenge his assumption that "once we correct (even crudely) for demography" is correct procedure for comparing varied national populations with culturally distinct historical experiences and differing school systems. The author's argument appears to be based on a discredited hypothesis built on poorly collected data about the origin of group differences in IQ, with the peer-reviewed refutations of the hypothesis published well before the blog post.

Dolan, C. V., Roorda, W., & Wicherts, J. M. (2004). Two failures of Spearman's hypothesis: The GAT-B in Holland and the JAT in South Africa. Intelligence, 35, 155-173.

http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/dolanSH2004.pdf

Wicherts, J. M., Dolan, C. V., & Van der Maas, H. L. J. (2010). A systematic literature review of the average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans. Intelligence, 38, 1-20.

http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/wicherts2010IQAFR.pdf

Anyway group differences of the kind to which the author refers are, according the most up-to-date peer-reviewed research, based mostly on environmental factors,

Nisbett RE, Aronson J, Blair C, Dickens W, Flynn J, Halpern DF, Turkheimer E. Group differences in IQ are best understood as environmental in origin. Am Psychol. 2012 Sep;67(6):503-4. doi: 10.1037/a0029772.

http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/nisbett2012groupdi...

so they still raise the question of how learning environments may be improved for learners in some social groups in the United States.

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#77

Teaching isn't bad, society is. I have a friend who teaches in an intercity school: * One or more of her students will be shot to death each year * Many of her kids get pulled out of class and beaten by rival gangs each year * Many of her kids will go to jail for a portion of the school year for drug charges each year * Many of her girls will be out due to pregnancy each year How is any of that the fault of the teach…

Hmmm - you certainly make a strong case for social problems. But both halves of the equation could be true, right? Teaching and society could both be bad.

My understanding, from this article and other reports, is that the percentage of teachers drawn from the top tier of graduates is dropping (top tier measured by GRE scores, grades, and rigor of the undergraduate program). The top 10% of math majors, for instance, rarely become teachers.

I think the US is putting so much emphasis on a plan. My take on it is if you draw your math teachers from the top echelons of math students, and provide support for learning to teach in a classroom, you really won't need to micromanage the curriculum. Sure, a general plan is a good thing, but at that point you can give the teachers pretty broad autonomy in the classroom.

Still, the problems you've described are extremely serious and could completely derail an education and life regardless of the talent and devotion of the teacher. Strong teachers and a stable social environment are both pretty critical for a kid trying to excel in school.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking a whole lot of teachers. And frankly, no. It is a classic case of treating the symptom rather than the disease. When what you need is stronger parenting and better social structure and safety nets, substituting that with additional responsibilities and workloads for teachers who are arguably often already burdened outside of what could reasonably be expected of them is not going to be a recipe for succe…

I'm asking teachers nothing, actually. Just wondering and asking the parent post's author... And frankly, I've no idea what ought to be done about it. What I do know is this much: in broad strokes, the US went from a household with a pop at work mum at home 50 years ago, to a pop and mum at work or single parent at work nowadays. In other words, it turned into a society where parents don't have the material time to p…

I heard about something called "parental rights" - is it something that depends on the individuals having "the material time to parent their own children" or is it me understanding things wrongly?
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