Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

nybooks.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 78 posts

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#31

Post by jimktrains2 »

Teaching isn't bad, society is. I have a friend who teaches in an intercity school:

* One or more of her students will be shot to death each year

* Many of her kids get pulled out of class and beaten by rival gangs each year

* Many of her kids will go to jail for a portion of the school year for drug charges each year

* Many of her girls will be out due to pregnancy each year

How is any of that the fault of the teachers? We need to fix our society before kids will have any chance of learning.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#32

Post by iends »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #27
awinder wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But public education is not a service used primarily by the poor unless you have an extremely broad definition of poor. I believe the figure is around 10% of children are in private education.

Education is segregated in the states by rich and poor districts; it is a felony to enroll your kid in the wrong school.

This is dishonest. Education is segregated by geographic proximity to school in the states. Of course, poor people live in poor areas and rich people live in rich areas so there is a strong correlation. Within a given school system, which is at the county level in this state (and I think most states), the same amount of tax money is generally spent per student so the rich schools get the same amount of the poor schools. The rich schools just have parents and PTAs that can collect more money than the poor schools.

Is there a good solution though? I've seen kids bused across town to try and fix this. Of course if you're the family who is getting bused across town to go to a worse school you're angry, but if you're moving to a better school you're probably pretty happy. Other counties have school choice plans where you can pick your school from a small list and they hope that it evens out (Hint: It doesn't).

Both options suck. What is better? Do other countries provide funding at the national level so that poor counties can educate at the same level as rich ones? In America, that'd probably require a change to the constitution.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#33

Post by Ntrails »

Haul4ss wrote: post #23

I can't help but think there's a Submarine[1] effect going on with reporting on public schools in the U.S. The U.S. is a huge country with a heterogeneous population spanning a wide swath of the socioeconomic continuum. To say "teaching is bad" as a blanket statement is intellectually dishonest, to the point where I think some organization(s) intentionally push this meme in the media to further their own purposes. I…

As with many things I'm reminded of the west wing:

"Mallory, education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don't need little changes, we need gigantic, monumental changes. Schools should be palaces. The competition for the best teachers should be fierce. They should be making six-figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge to its citizens, just like national defense. That's my position. I just haven't figured out how to do it yet."

Rather than pretending it could ever be the case, I like to imagine that there's an alternate universe where it happens :)

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#34

Post by TheBeardKing »

jostylr wrote: post #21
throwaway781 wrote: post #17

Currently in my first year teaching in an urban school. It's hard to describe how physically/mentally/emotionally draining it is. I went through an alternate certification program and was put in front of a class after a six week summer program. I am amazed that this is acceptable.

You've been given the task of controlling lots of kids, squishing their natural learning desires and ways. This should be draining as it is against the ways of how we evolved. See for example http://www.salon.com/2013/08/26/school_is_a_prison_and_damag... Despite your best intentions, coercive schooling is not a good thing. There are better ways, such as Sudbury schooling, that are both respectful of children and act…

Arguments like this make me wonder whether we should pursue homeschooling. My kids are 2 and 4, and we've been going back and forth on the decision. We couldn't afford private school, and my wife is already staying home. Our county's educational system is one of the best in the state, but it still suffers from the bad practices that plague our national education system.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#35

Post by cowsandmilk »

cies wrote: post #2

i did not read the article, just quickly scanned through. but the answer to my best knowledge is: 1) it isn't always that bad, if you pay the premium for private education you can get some of the best education available in the world 2) the people who pay for private schools also pay a significantly larger share of the taxes 3) those taxes pay for the public schools thus: public teaching is bad because the ones that…

(1) Many poor school districts are urban (2) Many urban dwellers are not owners, they are renters (3) Schools are funded by property taxes payed by owners (4) Often, the owners are large corporations, that do not involve themselves in anything about how the schools are run.

Basically, poor, urban schools are largely funded by faceless corporations holding hundreds of apartments paying taxes, not random rich families with luxury condos in the city sending kids to private school.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#36

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

TheBeardKing wrote: post #34
jostylr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been given the task of controlling lots of kids, squishing their natural learning desires and ways. This should be draining as it is against the ways of how we evolved. See for example http://www.salon.com/2013/08/26/school_is_a_prison_and_damag... Despite your best intentions, coercive schooling is not a good thing. There are better ways, such as Sudbury schooling, that are both respectful of children and act…

Arguments like this make me wonder whether we should pursue homeschooling. My kids are 2 and 4, and we've been going back and forth on the decision. We couldn't afford private school, and my wife is already staying home. Our county's educational system is one of the best in the state, but it still suffers from the bad practices that plague our national education system.

If you do make damn sure your kids socialise with other kids a significant amount (e.g. clubs, friends, etc). It is anecdotal but a lot of home school kids I've met are a bit "off" socially (e.g. young for their age, anti-social, don't do well in group settings, etc).

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#37

Post by ddebernardy »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #31

Teaching isn't bad, society is. I have a friend who teaches in an intercity school: * One or more of her students will be shot to death each year * Many of her kids get pulled out of class and beaten by rival gangs each year * Many of her kids will go to jail for a portion of the school year for drug charges each year * Many of her girls will be out due to pregnancy each year How is any of that the fault of the teach…

Wouldn't you agree that, in a society where kids are primarily parented by third parties in practice, teachers and educators ought to get their fair share of the blame for not being good role models and keeping kids protected from that mess?

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#38

Post by spindritf »

It's not. It's on par with the rest of the western world[1], maybe except Finland which is an outlier whether you include the US or not. At least as of 2009, I doubt it somehow collapsed since.

Not to mention higher education, where Americans lead. Although judging by tuitions perhaps a little too far in the diminishing returns region.

[1] http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou...

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#39

Post by seanmcdirmid »

iends wrote: post #32
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is segregated in the states by rich and poor districts; it is a felony to enroll your kid in the wrong school.

This is dishonest. Education is segregated by geographic proximity to school in the states. Of course, poor people live in poor areas and rich people live in rich areas so there is a strong correlation. Within a given school system, which is at the county level in this state (and I think most states), the same amount of tax money is generally spent per student so the rich schools get the same amount of the poor schoo…

You are either igonorant or are being dishonest. Most states don't have county-level school districts; and definitely heavily populated ones do not. The district is either rich or poor. Example: mercer island is just across I90 from Seattle in king county, and is one of the richest districts in the nation (since mercer island is rich). The PTA BS is just made up libertarian propaganda (blame the poor people for being poor).

Bussing solves racial disparity within a district, not economic disparity. Course, these often correspond but not always.

Most first world countries fund educations out of the federal budget so it is more equitable; course, the libertarians would call that socialist, but you reap what you sow.

Re: Why Is American Teaching So Bad?

#40

Post by mkohlmyr »

ddebernardy wrote: post #37
jimktrains2 wrote: post #31

Teaching isn't bad, society is. I have a friend who teaches in an intercity school: * One or more of her students will be shot to death each year * Many of her kids get pulled out of class and beaten by rival gangs each year * Many of her kids will go to jail for a portion of the school year for drug charges each year * Many of her girls will be out due to pregnancy each year How is any of that the fault of the teach…

Wouldn't you agree that, in a society where kids are primarily parented by third parties in practice, teachers and educators ought to get their fair share of the blame for not being good role models and keeping kids protected from that mess?

You're asking a whole lot of teachers.

And frankly, no. It is a classic case of treating the symptom rather than the disease. When what you need is stronger parenting and better social structure and safety nets, substituting that with additional responsibilities and workloads for teachers who are arguably often already burdened outside of what could reasonably be expected of them is not going to be a recipe for success.

Post reply on HN