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Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

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Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#71

Post by wtallis »

Stratoscope wrote: post #61
uselessdguy wrote: post #53

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream falla…

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

At best, people are imitating what they think Linus is doing. But most people miss out on just how rare Linus's rants are, how deserving his targets are when he does let loose and how much they should've known better, and most people aren't as authoritative as Linus.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#72

Post by uselessdguy »

Stratoscope wrote: post #61
uselessdguy wrote: post #53

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream falla…

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project.

No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who think they're special for using a Unix-like operating system.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#73

Post by jqm »

Stratoscope wrote: post #61
uselessdguy wrote: post #53

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream falla…

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

I disagree. I think some people are just irrationally upset about perceived threats to something that is very important to them.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Linus.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#74

Post by acdha »

georgemcbay wrote: post #43
icebraining wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the decent people who dislike systemd don't deserve that criticism, and the deranged people who issue death threats will ignore it.

Same issue as #GamerGate in that game "journalism" really is completely broken but now you can't talk about that without being lumped in with a bunch of vocal minority crazed misogynists.

Sure you can: just talk about journalism without mentioning GamerGate. That label was created to co-opt an existing issue as cover for attacks on specific women – the only reason to mention it would be if you wanted muddy the waters instead.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#75

Post by rbanffy »

techdragon wrote: post #65
eksith wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Actually that would have been the better outcome anyway since it adds entropy to the gene pool. Cross pollination of ideas could have benefitted both parties. And even if your side doesn't take the cake, enough people would have flocked to the source that we could have fixed some bugs and resolved potential security issues due to the addition of more eyes. Looking from afar, you'd think this was some tiff over…

It happened. Gentoo is waiting to welcome all the systemD haters. OpenRC is going strong. We also support systemD as well because USE flags rock. In fact being able to see the sysV and systemD init files side by site was what finally convinced me it is an improvement. An improvement with many questionable additions... Like free money attached with losing my 25/20 eyesight to normal 20/20 or some other minor debilitat…

The Debian exiles will miss apt badly. Apt was what made me move from Red Hat.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#76

Post by wtallis »

nandhp wrote: post #31
esaym wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish I could get over it. But every time some random process fails to start at boot time I...well I cry a little knowing this is what we are now stuck with.

You're not stuck with anything. Any major transition will have bugs that need to be ironed out. In a year or two, assuming you don't switch to Slackware, it will be more reliable than sysvinit.

Major transitions do inevitably have issues, but that doesn't mean they're all equally painful. Systemd folks have definitely not done a great job of easing the transition, both on the technical side with interoperability with existing tools and configurations, and on the human-interaction factors of project management and marketing.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#78

Post by mwcampbell »

jqm wrote: post #73
Stratoscope wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

I disagree. I think some people are just irrationally upset about perceived threats to something that is very important to them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Linus.

> I think some people are just irrationally upset about perceived threats to something that is very important to them.

Some opponents of systemd seem to think that a move to systemd is an irreversible move in the wrong direction -- that once a distro moves to systemd, there's no going back, because systemd is large, complex, and monolithic, unlike the simple and modular SysV init system. If one is strongly attached to Debian, and feels that the distro is moving irreversibly in the wrong direction, I can see why one would strongly oppose such a move.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#79

Post by likeagrownup »

georgemcbay wrote: post #43
icebraining wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the decent people who dislike systemd don't deserve that criticism, and the deranged people who issue death threats will ignore it.

Same issue as #GamerGate in that game "journalism" really is completely broken but now you can't talk about that without being lumped in with a bunch of vocal minority crazed misogynists.

Game journalism is traditionally very weak, with journalists routinely feeling beholden to game manufacturers who use both positive reinforcement (expanded access to demos, invitations to special events, access to interview subjects, exclusive prerelease info) and negative reinforcement (especially the withdrawal of previously described perks) to coerce games journalists into providing very favorable reviews.

Only a very small minority of games journalists are truly unbiased, as the vast majority depend on access granted voluntarily by publishers to get the info that drives the traffic they need to make a living. They're often little more than an extension of game publishers PR departments.

Unfortunately it's very hard to solve this problem, as there's no way to force a publisher to share helpful access to critical reviewers.

Also, one time a game publisher had sex with people in the game industry which proves that all women are whores.

Oh man, I was so close.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#80

Post by kristofferR »

tptacek wrote: post #60
georgemcbay wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same issue as #GamerGate in that game "journalism" really is completely broken but now you can't talk about that without being lumped in with a bunch of vocal minority crazed misogynists.

It's very easy to talk about game "journalism" without being lumped into the "vocal minority". Just talk about game "journalism" without sticking up for the hopeless "GamerGate" brand, and be careful not to bring up game "journalism" in discussions about gender parity.

I get your point, yet I also see why that would be impossible from the GamerGate point of view considering how the media for the most part covered GamerGate in a biased one-sided way.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support GamerGate (or the other side) at all. Yet, all gamers aren't women-hating misogynists, despite the reporting.

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