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The Next Generation Bends Over

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71–80 of 216 posts

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#71

Please. $170 million is "fuck you" money. Aaron and I'm guessing many of the top founders/executives made enough money to never ever have to work again. Fake revolutions are cute and all, but think of how awesome it would be to never ever have to work for the man again. They can do anything they want...for profit, not for profit, TBD (Y Combinator). This wasn't some BS talent acquisition; this was an absolute shitloa…

"Fuck You money" is such a myth. More on this soon in another post.

You're posting this on a site built by a guy who had the time and money to dedicate himself to helping create startups because it's a "cool hack". That certainly looks like FU money to me.

And for what it's worth, I think YC is way cooler than ViaWeb.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#73
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is sort of fuck you money, but honestly I'm more pissed off that a shitty company now owns one of my favorite webapps. Mint is now going to die. I also think something must have been going terribly wrong. The exit was tiny considering the huge amount of money that was invested.

Just use yodlee.com (they power Mint's backend anyway). I've been a happy user for years. I agree with your second statement: to the uninformed observer (me and everyone else in this thread) something does seem off. Bank and credit card leads pay from $50-$200 per pop let alone the riches that mortgage leads bring in. I was in fits of laughter during the initial Mint acquisition HN thread ( http://news.ycombinator.co…

Mint's backend isn't the point, it certainly isn't what made Mint popular —— it's the frontend.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#74
post #13

I find the Jefferson quote toward the end rather ironic. Jefferson and his compatriots were fond of explaining why anything was worth trading for freedom, yet the author is suggesting that the Mint founders should've passed on the guaranteed "freedom" the acquisition money provides for some trite devotion to slaying Goliath. If you want change, make your own change. It's no one else's responsibility. Even if it were,…

That's being a bit equivocal.

You're using the word freedom in very different way than Jefferson ever meant it. In Jefferson's world, the Mint founders are no more or less free now than before selling to Intuit.

Otherwise, I agree that it isn't for us to judge. The founders were certainly free to sell their company.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#75
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck You money" is such a myth. More on this soon in another post.

Reminds me of something my uncle told me: "The rich are different from you and me: they have money...and you don't!" Seriously though - you can never have too much money, but this doesn't change the fact that it is way better to have, say $10M in net worth vs. $100,000. Of course if you have $10M you're still going to want to be a billionaire, but now you can choose to either work hard to become a billionaire or do s…

Reminds me of something my uncle told me: "The rich are different from you and me: they have money...and you don't!"

This was a famous exchange between Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald said, "You know Ernest, the rich are different from you and me." Hemingway replied, "Yes, they have more money."

The phrase was lifted for the title of a book of anecdotes about rich people that I once saw a stack of on a coffee table at Restoration Hardware. I picked one up and it turned out to be freaking hilarious. I heartily recommend it: http://www.amazon.com/Rich-Are-Different-Priceless-Quotation...

For example, there was the English aristocrat who, when told he could no longer afford to keep three pastry chefs (French, Danish, and one other), said "What? Can't a man have a biscuit when he wants it?"

Then there was Christina Onassis' habit of sending her private jet out to get a twelve-pack of Diet Coke every time she ran out. The pilot was asked why he didn't just bring back a full load. His answer: "Because Madame does not want old Diet Coke."

I could quote another dozen stories from memory and this book has been sitting in storage for like 10 years. A seriously hilarious book.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#76
post #51
post #3

A bit harsh, for something so speculative. It's a rare founder who has no offer he'd take. In fact, if you have shareholders or employees with options, and someone makes you an offer that's significantly above the expected value of your company, fiduciary responsibility requires you to take it. You can bend this requirement to some extent by overestimating your expected value, but there is always some number you'd ha…

I think what Jason's getting at is to look beyond the offer/fiduciary responsibility mindset and to think bigger, to be motivated by passion and have grander ambitions than looking at one's business as "company + product + customer = offer/price". There are many successful business that truly don't have a number they'd HAVE to take. It's a choice, and that choice doesn't appear to be actively made by this generation'…

I think what PG's getting at is that you can't "look beyond" the fiduciary responsibility "mindset" without being fiduciarily irresponsible. Which is basically illegal.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck You money" is such a myth. More on this soon in another post.

Most of your blog posts strike me as you rationalizing why you aren't a hugely profitable company.

You know they are not?

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just use yodlee.com (they power Mint's backend anyway). I've been a happy user for years. I agree with your second statement: to the uninformed observer (me and everyone else in this thread) something does seem off. Bank and credit card leads pay from $50-$200 per pop let alone the riches that mortgage leads bring in. I was in fits of laughter during the initial Mint acquisition HN thread ( http://news.ycombinator.co…

Mint's backend isn't the point, it certainly isn't what made Mint popular —— it's the frontend.

That's partially true, but what also made them popular is exceptional PR, SEO and marketing. Yodlee has some features Mint does not and vice-versa.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#79

Please. $170 million is "fuck you" money. Aaron and I'm guessing many of the top founders/executives made enough money to never ever have to work again. Fake revolutions are cute and all, but think of how awesome it would be to never ever have to work for the man again. They can do anything they want...for profit, not for profit, TBD (Y Combinator). This wasn't some BS talent acquisition; this was an absolute shitloa…

Agreed. I don't know that any argument about their relative merits as a company, a product or a competitor really trumps the "fuck you money" factor in this case. $170m is several metric, cubic butt-tons of money, even granted some fairly substantial fragmentation of equity among top executives and managers.

That said, one does have to keep in mind how relative the concept of "fuck you money" really is. I, for example, am broke, bootstrapping a company entirely out of cash, having to do huge amounts of consulting in order to pay two part-time employees and support my comparatively large living expenses inherited from my well-off salaried days. Yes, I do mean "to pay the bills" - as in, just to break even operationally. Finding the time to work on the projects I'm passionate about building into products, which are in the same vertical as the consulting customers but with which there exists no meaningful overlap is very hard (that is, it's not really feasible to get the customers to shoulder or subsidise the development costs - the aims are just too unrelated to short-term projects, especially since I don't have the cash cushion to float anything especially long term).

If I could sell my company for say, $5m, that would be "fuck you" money to me. It wouldn't mean that I'd never have to work forever, but it'd definitely afford me, oh, say, a good decade of being able to sit around and code whatever I please, after winding down all my customers and telling anyone who has any debts to collect: here's your principal pay-off, now blow me.

OK, if I wanted to hire some team of nontrivial size to help me along the way, fine, $10m - the extra $5m would fund, what, about 30-35 $100k employees for a year, or 7 of them for 5 years?

I'm not even interested in imagining what 9-figure exits look like. I don't care. For someone who has no real assets to speak of and no real cash nor credit, even a large six-figure exit would be a ginormous game-changer.

The point here isn't to put forth my sob story--not at all. My point is that a reasonable threshold of, "Hey, who could blame them for taking the money?" could be much, much lower than $170m, or considerably higher, depending on the position you're coming from and the relative interests bound up in that. Obviously, if I had a net worth of a few million, cashing out of a valuable, disruptive company for $5m, once its relative merits and goodwill and brand and reputation and future marketability potential and all that are considered, would seem rather absurd. But to someone with $0, $5m is very much "fuck you money." Just imagine what $170m is.

I think PG alludes to this dimension of things pointedly in "The Venture Capital Squeeze" (http://www.paulgraham.com/vcsqueeze.html), where he encourages VCs to allow founders to partially cash-out prior to any "liquidity events":

"As things currently work, their attitudes toward risk tend to be diametrically opposed: the founders, who have nothing, would prefer a 100% chance of $1 million to a 20% chance of $10 million, while the VCs can afford to be "rational" and prefer the latter.

Whatever they say, the reason founders are selling their companies early instead of doing Series A rounds is that they get paid up front. That first million is just worth so much more than the subsequent ones. If founders could sell a little stock early, they'd be happy to take VC money and bet the rest on a bigger outcome."

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#80

Please. $170 million is "fuck you" money. Aaron and I'm guessing many of the top founders/executives made enough money to never ever have to work again. Fake revolutions are cute and all, but think of how awesome it would be to never ever have to work for the man again. They can do anything they want...for profit, not for profit, TBD (Y Combinator). This wasn't some BS talent acquisition; this was an absolute shitloa…

They didn't have to work for the proverbial Man before they got rich, really. I would surmise that one of the reasons they started Mint was to avoid having to work for what most people consider to be the Man (e.g., typical corporate jobs). Not the only reason, but I imagine it wasn't last on the list. Talented, ambitious people have this option available, even without being "fuck you" rich, by joining companies that don't suck; the option they don't have available is "do nothing." Not all work is thankless toiling.

And you don't need FU money to have more than one option available that prevents your family from starving. Others may disagree, but I thought this was a bit hyperbolic and cliche. There are millions of shades of gray between $170 million and poverty, and I can't imagine the Mint guys, and their families, were going to go hungry if they didn't accept this deal.

But I get what you mean, and I'm inclined to agree with your larger point. The founders of Mint aren't beholden to anyone but themselves and their shareholders, and I wouldn't expect them to put their lives on hold for my comfort, convenience, and need to have faith in the goodness of mankind. In the same position, I'd have done the same.

The solution to this, if Intuit completely drops the ball in managing Mint well, is for someone else to launch another competitor to take Intuit on. That gets the best of both worlds, people getting rewarded for creating something great, and people always have another option outside of Intuit.

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