I think I agree with Cuban on this one, with the caveat that anyone who works for free for a billionaire is a bit soft in the head. I can see not paying market wages, but not even minimum wage?
Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
71–80 of 191 posts
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#72It may not be a popular opinion but I agree with the US gov on this one. Everyone wants something for free. However, I think the big problem is how the compensation is valued. If the experience gained by the intern is more valuable than minimum wage, then yes, the law seems broken. However for every job that would actually provide meaningful experience and benefit the intern there are probably many other internships…
Second that. We had unpaid interns at my last job, and their work consisted of telemarketing, harvesting email addresses, web form spamming, data entry. It wouldn't be cost effective if their earned even $5/hr. What did they get out of it... cynicism?
What happened to paying your way through college with paying jobs? Kids need to put their bottom line first, just like employers do.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
You haven't explained why you agree with the US government on this one (though it's not just the US government). Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place? Are you saying that instead of letting people make their own choices at an individual level as to whether or not the experience is of value, it's better for government to just ban the choice alto…
I'll take a crack at justifying it. First of all, if you have a minimum wage law (which we do), it has to be enforced. Allowing people to work as "unpaid interns" is a half-assed way that corporations take to work around that law. You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive. And overall, the point…
> You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive.
Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.
> And overall, the point is that you can't just let people create a massive loophole in that law by just deciding not to pay people at all.
I, for one, don't have any problem with people finding "loopholes" in bad laws.
> So the tradition of unpaid internships in certain traditionally white-collar industries tends to be a subtle form of class discrimination.
Class warfare? Seriously . . . ?
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
You haven't explained why you agree with the US government on this one (though it's not just the US government). Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place? Are you saying that instead of letting people make their own choices at an individual level as to whether or not the experience is of value, it's better for government to just ban the choice alto…
I'll take a crack at justifying it. First of all, if you have a minimum wage law (which we do), it has to be enforced. Allowing people to work as "unpaid interns" is a half-assed way that corporations take to work around that law. You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive. And overall, the point…
So then what you're arguing then is society is better off for there not to have any work being done at all - essentially what Mark Cuban's concluding statement is: for the "benefit" of the exploited intern, we would rather they sit at home rather than gain any experience at the risk that the experience is useless? What does it matter if the firm is for profit or not for profit/charity/government agency in the first place? So charities couldn't possibly exploit the poor/their workers?
By this logic, should we ban or let government set prices on everything? After all, any free giveaways causes pressure on substitutes to go down in value. So by setting a price on a good or service which is below what some other guy has, you're essentially being "exploited".
Class discrimination? Right, so you're arguing that it's not fair that "middle-class or wealthier kids whose parents can support them" have the privilege of unpaid internships so this practice should be stopped?
As for empirical studies, the problem is that it's very difficult to isolate the variables but when it comes to understanding simple price floors and price ceilings, it's a pretty simple, conclusive relationship. Further, the studies are pretty clear in my books with the overwhelming evidence of cause and effect of minimum wages (sure there are those that are inconclusive, but if you're looking for a "scientific consensus" - you won't find the average economist saying that it's inconclusive unless they happen to work for a union): http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/50years.htm
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#75So call it volunteering? Surely volunteers are not illegal yet.
Volunteering is something you do for a charity.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Hmm, one is an equal partnership, the other isn't. Is it really? Is SM play "an equal partnership" between master and slave?
Uh, it's not like the "slave" is someone the "master" just kidnapped. It's an agreed upon situation with an established "safe word" the "slave" can utter at any time to stop whatever is happening.
An internship's precisely the same. It's an agreed upon situation with an established "safe word" the "intern" can utter at any time to stop whatever is happening.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
You haven't explained why you agree with the US government on this one (though it's not just the US government). Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place? Are you saying that instead of letting people make their own choices at an individual level as to whether or not the experience is of value, it's better for government to just ban the choice alto…
"Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place?" We don't. The government takes the logical position that all such internships are illegal, so regulators don't need to make that subjective judgment. In this light, the answer to your second question is "yes" -- the government is erring on the side of worker safety. It's a judgment call, and you can disag…
I find it disturbing that when "both sides of the debate have perfectly reasonable arguments" the knee-jerk response is "Let's regulate the fuck out of it!"
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#78A billionaire complaining he has to pay people.... to paraphrase the title of the post, screw him.
Actually, he's complaining that he can't employ people for a project that probably won't happen at all unless he can employ interns. You're saying "screw him" because he wants to create something that is of greater advantage to people entering the workforce than not having it in existence at all.
> he can't employ people for a project that probably won't happen at all unless he can employ interns
I find that very doubtful. Why is he even considering the project if the cost of paid interns would negate the upside?
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#79It may not be a popular opinion but I agree with the US gov on this one. Everyone wants something for free. However, I think the big problem is how the compensation is valued. If the experience gained by the intern is more valuable than minimum wage, then yes, the law seems broken. However for every job that would actually provide meaningful experience and benefit the intern there are probably many other internships…
Second that. We had unpaid interns at my last job, and their work consisted of telemarketing, harvesting email addresses, web form spamming, data entry. It wouldn't be cost effective if their earned even $5/hr. What did they get out of it... cynicism? What happened to paying your way through college with paying jobs? Kids need to put their bottom line first, just like employers do.
What were they promised?
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
After years of freelancing, without prior "work experience" and without even a high school diploma, my first job paid me $64,000. Think about it - I ran my own business, I was responsible for everything from client acquisition, billing, account management, not to mention actual production and marketing. And I didn't starve or get evicted, so it clearly worked. That's great experience. An unpaid internship doesn't giv…
> People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not. I'm not calling them "heroic". I'm just annoyed that other people are casting them as "evil". They can be mutually beneficial, and I don't see a problem with that. The "evil" is people trying to prohibit mutually beneficial transactions. By the way, I love the entrepreneurial spirit. I just don't love the "you…
Then look at it this way. Barter is taxed, and working for free for "experience" is clearly a form of barter.
Unpaid internships still must be taxed. They will probably be taxed at a higher prevailing wage than minimum wage.
So, you have tax payment going on, while no employment paying is going on.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, rich or reasonably well-off kids can take free internships, which creates more free internships, which creates competition for free internships. And those smart, deserving, motivated kids who can't afford to work utterly for free cannot compete for free internships and instead have to work at McDonald's or some other, less useful job.
If the internships are paid, everyone is better off... except, perhaps, the employer who hoped to get free labor. (But who still has to pay taxes, natch.)