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Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

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Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#71

Post by Meekro »

dave1619 wrote: post #35

To help some understand why the Model S could be "cheaper" to own vs a Honda Odyssey it's important to understand a few factors: 1. Low fuel costs - electricity is way cheaper than gas and when you factor in gas savings over 8 years, you get substantial savings (ie., $20k over 8 years if driving 15k miles a year, of course depends on gas prices and electricity prices). 2. Low maintenance costs - there's no oil change…

I've heard the "low maintenance costs" point made often by Tesla themselves, but based on my research from their website it doesn't hold up. Tesla encourages you to buy their $600 a year service inspections[1], and their $1,000 a year extended service agreement. And God forbid anything breaks outside of the warranty, because you'll be in for some costly repairs[2].

[1] http://www.teslamotors.com/service

[2] http://insideevs.com/dont-wreck-your-tesla-model-s-because-r...

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#72

Post by btian »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #70
pravda wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the basis that it is the size of a (very large) watermelon. What's it made of? Copper and steel and aluminum. $1000 of materials and $1000 in labor. Here's a pic: http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Screen-Shot-... Then of course there is the cost of the cooling jacket and the electronics. I can't estimate that readily.

This manner of cost estimation is not convincing to me, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone. There are plenty of small things that cost a lot of money, because, perhaps, of the precision or techniques required to manufacture them or their components, or the dearness of the materials that compose the minority of the object. TL;DR: What is a sub-one ounce object made mostly of silicon that costs more than a th…

It doesn't cost $1000. What you're paying for is R&D. Just like a Windows 8 DVD doesn't cost hundred of dollars to make

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#73

Post by pravda »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #70
pravda wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the basis that it is the size of a (very large) watermelon. What's it made of? Copper and steel and aluminum. $1000 of materials and $1000 in labor. Here's a pic: http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Screen-Shot-... Then of course there is the cost of the cooling jacket and the electronics. I can't estimate that readily.

This manner of cost estimation is not convincing to me, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone. There are plenty of small things that cost a lot of money, because, perhaps, of the precision or techniques required to manufacture them or their components, or the dearness of the materials that compose the minority of the object. TL;DR: What is a sub-one ounce object made mostly of silicon that costs more than a th…

>TL;DR: What is a sub-one ounce object made mostly of silicon that costs more than a thousand dollars. (intel i7)

In that case, you are paying for the IP, not the silicon.

The Tesla motor is a simple design, no magnets, no brushes. I assume they are hand-built. Some, but not too much precision machining required.

Think about how much precision goes into a 2TB hard drive that costs $100 retail.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#74

Post by jamesaguilar »

btian wrote: post #72
jamesaguilar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This manner of cost estimation is not convincing to me, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone. There are plenty of small things that cost a lot of money, because, perhaps, of the precision or techniques required to manufacture them or their components, or the dearness of the materials that compose the minority of the object. TL;DR: What is a sub-one ounce object made mostly of silicon that costs more than a th…

It doesn't cost $1000. What you're paying for is R&D. Just like a Windows 8 DVD doesn't cost hundred of dollars to make

The implicit claim being that Tesla does not factor in R&D when they charge consumers for replacements?

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#75

Post by dror »

The Model S was highly rated by Consumer Reports, but the predicted reliability is only average. Specifically, the 2013 had a much worse than average rating for Squeaks and Rattles and Body Hardware. This will certainly affect the price. Personally, I never buy a car unless it's rated better than average by CR.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#76

Post by brc »

dave1619 wrote: post #35

To help some understand why the Model S could be "cheaper" to own vs a Honda Odyssey it's important to understand a few factors: 1. Low fuel costs - electricity is way cheaper than gas and when you factor in gas savings over 8 years, you get substantial savings (ie., $20k over 8 years if driving 15k miles a year, of course depends on gas prices and electricity prices). 2. Low maintenance costs - there's no oil change…

It's wrong to think that the majority of service costs as vehicles age is in the engine and oil changes. Most new cars engines/tranmsmissions will go very large distances with no mechanical failure if serviced properly. Exceptions exist, but for the most part, engines are durable and have minimal service requirements.

Cars must have suspension replacements, plus fixed for lots of little car systems that can start failing with age. An example is windscreen washer systems. Usually required for safety inspections, they can stop working, and it's expensive to remove and replace them because they wind their way around multiple components. Same for hvac systems and lighting systems and on it goes.

I bring this up because the worth of a tesla will not just hinge on the ability to fit a new battery pack and go. It will also hinge of the ability of the basic vehicle and non-propulsion systems to continue to work and become economically serviceable. Most cars can get a substantial mechanical refresh for the current cost of a new tesla battery - but this is not usually done because the car itself develops many other failings and a new one is faster and easier to purchase.

So the resale value will swing on not only the battery replacement cost, but may other things besides. Only then will we know what the used value looks like.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#78

Post by erikstarck »

plg wrote: post #38

What about ruggedness? Up here in (eastern) Canada we have stretches of weeks even months where the temp doesn't go above ... 10F? 15F? (-10 to -15 C) and frequently goes down to -20C or lower (below zero F). How does this affect battery range? Also I don't live in a big city, so who in the hell do I call when there's something wrong with my Tesla and how long do I wait?

If it's good enough for Norway it should work in Canada too, right? Well, one in every ten cars sold (10.8%) in Norway in March was a Tesla... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/04/04/7-tesla-norway-facts-wil...

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#79

Post by reportingsjr »

jesusmichael wrote: post #66
alexkiritz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model S battery packs can be upgraded in a few minutes at robotic service stations...

You mean like the stations that A Better Place was going to build but never did? Or the ones where Tesla purposes to charge you $100 to swap it out? The infrastructure doesn't exist and building a "swap garage" is just a pipe dream unless it can service a large market... so having a propriety battery system doesn't lend itself to that... Its cheaper to fill up my tank...

Wow, you are really anti electric cars.

Better Place built quite a few battery swap locations, but due to their limited market (~1000 cars, compared more than 23,000 cars for Tesla already) they obviously failed.

The Tesla battery swaps are listed at between $60 and $80 which for a similar sedan (size, engine power, etc) is about the same as a full tank of gas.

The cost and serviceability of electric motors vs internal combustion engines reeks of BS and until you provide actual sources most of your arguments will have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#80

Post by rz2k »

plg wrote: post #38

What about ruggedness? Up here in (eastern) Canada we have stretches of weeks even months where the temp doesn't go above ... 10F? 15F? (-10 to -15 C) and frequently goes down to -20C or lower (below zero F). How does this affect battery range? Also I don't live in a big city, so who in the hell do I call when there's something wrong with my Tesla and how long do I wait?

It will do pretty bad sitting if it is left out in the cold for a long time without being plugged in. As I understand it, it must heat its batteries to keep them from freezing, and if this power use completely runs down the battery or it freezes it has to be replaced at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars.
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