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Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

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Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#31
post #17

Can some one explain NPV to me? This is the first I am hearing of this term and wikipedia does not offer an explanation that is intuitive enough. Its odd that the NPV is listed as $40K+ when the actual cost of the car is $90K+.

The underlying idea is that a dollar today is worth more to you than a dollar tomorrow (all else equal).

The NPV is how much a thing is worth/costs now after taking that into account and discounting future cashflows appropriately.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#32
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because an electric car lasts much longer than ICE ones

Not necessarily true. However the bigger concern is technology. The tech behind the batteries in a current generation Tesla will be probably one or two generations removed. Meaning, your going to get soaked on first generation buys. Now Tesla does have swappable packs but the unknown is, how much will a replacement pack of second or third generation cost and will you be able to install it in the first generation car;…

You're not understanding the point of the rebate. Part of the purpose of the rebate is to finance car companies selling viable electric cars so that they can later on down the road make more affordable cars.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#33

I have also ran similar calculations in my head. I think what I'd want to be convinced is a thorough analysis from a mechanical/industrial engineer on how much you can expect to save from a fully electric car on maintenance. The claim I've heard from Tesla is that, since there are much fewer moving parts within an electric motor, the car will last substantially longer. While this makes intuitive sense, I would love t…

The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy that electric car proponents have been spreading for years. There are still many, moving parts which require servicing and can fail at a rate of similarly serviced gas engines. In fact servicing (rewinding) is quite a labor intensive and expensive operation, given the price of copper or other conductive material used in the construction of electric motor.

Should a motor fail. The cost is significant.

I like the idea of an electric car, but the truth is the motors do fail. They require maintenance in the static environment of a factory or they will fail, a car on the open road with harsh environmental factors it will be hard on them.

But the biggest lie about electric car maintenance is that is lower. Its not. 90% of a vehicle's maintenance has nothing to do with its motor. It's tires, brakes, lighting, lubricants(yes electric motors need oil changes too), and power systems. Which I suspect will be more extensive here since there will be countless OS upgrades to both the drive systems and the power control units.

Its not possible at this time to compare gas engine maintenance w/ electric motor maintenance because its not apples to apples. You can however look at replacement cost as an indication of serviceability. A 400hp electric motor costs about $24,000 vs. a 400hp gas engine at about $6000.

The gas engine is still far more economical at this point even factoring in fuel costs.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#34
post #4

Would you buy an eight year used Tesla for 30k? I'm a fan of Tesla and hope to be an owner some day, but I think the author is being overly optimistic here.

Part of the problem is that many people can't own an electric vehicle because neither their apartment/condo or work has a place to charge it.

You basically have to be a home owner in order to own an electric vehicle.

That's not an easy situation to solve either.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#35
To help some understand why the Model S could be "cheaper" to own vs a Honda Odyssey it's important to understand a few factors:

1. Low fuel costs - electricity is way cheaper than gas and when you factor in gas savings over 8 years, you get substantial savings (ie., $20k over 8 years if driving 15k miles a year, of course depends on gas prices and electricity prices).

2. Low maintenance costs - there's no oil changes, timing belt, etc. It's basically tires. Even brakes you don't need to change often because of regenerative braking.

3. High residual value due to upgradeability - the battery pack is swappable, so after 8 years (or longer) you can swap out battery packs to a bigger pack (ie., 400+ mile range). This is a great feature and will add residual value to the Model S. Also, over-the-air updates keeps the software always up to date.

4. High residual value due to battery pack - the battery pack for the Model S is holding up well with customers so far, and after 8 years it should show minimal degradation (ie., 10-15% likely, max 20%). In other words, the battery will still hold substantial value and when a person buys a 8-year-old Model S in the future, they are not only buying the car but they are buying the battery pack (ie., fuel savings) as well. This is why the residual value of a Model S (or another EV with a large battery pack) will be substantially higher than a comparable ICE car.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well we know that Elon Musk has promised a buyback guarantee, indexed to the buyback cost of a similarly old Mercedes S class[1]. So that sets a floor on the depreciation value. Also, as btian notes below, the electric drivetrain is also much simpler than a gasoline one, so it should be in much better shape relative to non-electric cars. I'm relatively optimistic because the part that depreciates the most is the batt…

Electric motor fail on average on par with similarly serviced gas engines. Failure of motor bearings is usually the result of improper mechanical installation causing undesirable forces acting on the bearings, or simply poor maintenance. Bearings should be inspected regularly for lubrication and uncharacteristic noises. Their life expectancy depends on factors previously cited. Most motor vendors typically recommend…

What you have here is a fairly atypical fuel engine lifetime that you are treating as typical.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#38
What about ruggedness? Up here in (eastern) Canada we have stretches of weeks even months where the temp doesn't go above ... 10F? 15F? (-10 to -15 C) and frequently goes down to -20C or lower (below zero F). How does this affect battery range? Also I don't live in a big city, so who in the hell do I call when there's something wrong with my Tesla and how long do I wait?

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#39

Does anyone know why the Net Present Value in the cash flow model is so much different? Depreciation Model: $39,889 Cash Flow Model: $62,874

Travis (who forked my model to create the cash flow model) and I chatted about this. It's primarily due to the effect of time value on money, when you finance the car. If you were to purchase the car outright, you would want to use the 1st tab; vs. financing, the 2nd tab.
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