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Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

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Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#71
post #33

Brendan Eich was not fired because he made a political donation. He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code . There is not, and never has been, any justification for denying gays the right to marry except prejudice and bigotry. Every single non-religious argument against gay marriage has been definitively debunked. Therefore, discrimi…

"He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code."

Just because a person is a bigot doesn't necessarily mean that s/he is a bad person.

I've met racist people and even I am able to maintain some level of respect for them. This is what being open-minded is.

Hurting people just because they have a different philosophical belief than yours is the same kind of narrow-mindedness that leads to racism and religious fanaticism in the first place. Back in the past, if you said the world was round, people would classify you as crazy by virtue of you having an opinion that the majority did not believe. This kind of narrow-mindedness holds back open dialogue and progress.

As 'bad' as it is to be your definition of a bigot, to denote all bigots as having a broken moral code is as negative as bigotry itself.

I hate how people have this misconception that you have to hurt people to make them change.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#72
post #33

Brendan Eich was not fired because he made a political donation. He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code . There is not, and never has been, any justification for denying gays the right to marry except prejudice and bigotry. Every single non-religious argument against gay marriage has been definitively debunked. Therefore, discrimi…

> He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot

On what basis is the claim justified that "he was fired" at all?

And, if he was fired (or, at least, given the choice to resign or be fired), what evidence is that that it was because of the donation (whatever it might provide "evidence" of), and not because of Mozilla board's concerns about the way he responded to the controversy over the donation? Managing corporate image is, after all, part of the CEO's responsibility.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#73
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's awfully convenient that his discrimination is immoral , while your discrimination is not only moral but a moral imperative , isn't it?

No, it's not convenient, it's simply a fact. The discrimination against Brendan was based on something that he did . Discrimination against gays is based on something that they are . The former is morally justifiable, the latter is not. It really is that simple.

I understand you are passionate about this topic but please consider this line of thinking:

Here is what I am seeing: "The discrimination against Brendan was based on something that he did." [therefore the discrimination is morally justifiable]

He did what he thought was right by his own standards.

I don't suppose you are for punishing people who do things based on what they believe is right.

Rather, you want to punish Brendan, in part, because of the nature of his belief.

If Brendan had NOT donated, would you have wanted him to resign?

Perhaps not, because, then you would argue, it is okay for him to have bad ideas, so long as he doesn't act on them.

It is because Brendan had donated to a cause which you disagree with, that you want him to be punished. Because a donation to a cause, in itself, is not "morally" reprehensible. You wouldn't punish people for donating for a cause.

Rather, your problem is with the cause he donated.

Your problem is not with Brendan, it is with the anti-movement against taking gender out of the equation in legal marriage.

Brendan has a different standard than you do.

It is clear that you believe Brendan has a bad standard.

But who is to say Brendan's standard is better or worst than yours?

It is with this line of thinking that you might reconsider whether it is, in fact, "morally justifiable" to discriminate against Brendan.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#74

Between the way our industry has handled this latest thing with Mozilla and the way that related issues like gender inequality is handled at various conferences, I am finding myself less and less wanting to be involved with the community at large. It feels more and more like if you disagree with what a very vocal minority believes, you are going to be ostracized to the point that you could lose your job. I have a fam…

> I have a family to take care of so losing my job would be a pretty big deal.

I wonder how you'd feel if your company hired a CEO who would want to take away your spouse's benefits because [insert arbitrary reason here]. There is a reason why people are vocal: they get hurt otherwise.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#75
post #12

I wonder if he had denied the holocaust or was an active KKK member if this author would be singing the same tune.

Side note: Where I live, holocaust denial is a crime (considered to be hate speech). I was a little surprised to read that it's actually legal in the US.

Allowing people to express views that are stupid, irrational, malicious, or otherwise flawed is the best way of exposing what is wrong with those views.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#76

You know, the flagging here on HN is starting to get annoying. 30 min ago this was on the front page, now it's at position #91: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533055 Probably because there are 22 comments for 26 points, which is triggering something (or people are flagging it). Everyone clearly wants to talk about this -- it's getting really annoying that it has to keep jumping threads because of whatever HN's…

I came here to convey this same sentiment, well done. I agree that it's getting tiresome. This is a topic relevant to HN. Why can't it be discussed civilly?

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#77

Between the way our industry has handled this latest thing with Mozilla and the way that related issues like gender inequality is handled at various conferences, I am finding myself less and less wanting to be involved with the community at large. It feels more and more like if you disagree with what a very vocal minority believes, you are going to be ostracized to the point that you could lose your job. I have a fam…

I share all the same concerns you just voiced. It's unfortunate, but I think one of the unintended consequences of all this is that it will drive people into enclaves—exactly what the people who trolled Eich into resignation claim they want to avoid. But maybe fairness and openness is something they feel only they deserve. Political incorrectness apparently has no rights anymore in the Valley.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#78
post #5

Utter bullocks. Would we entertain this idea that the tolerant must tolerate intolerance if Prop 8 was about race, rather than gender? Of course not. Nobody pretends that we must not speak ill of racists; certainly nobody pretends that speaking ill of racists makes you just as bad as racists. It is apparent to me that we as a society still have a lot of ground to cover when it comes to the appreciation of the importa…

Your "gay is the new black" argument is invalid.

You have never seen–and won’t see–“heterosexual only” and “gay only” water fountains, diners, buses, schools, in light of 75 years of oppressive Jim Crow laws.

You have not–and won’t–see homosexuals snatched away from their families at birth for the purpose of division and dehumanization.

Homosexual men/women have never endured a slave trade for generations and witnessed their ancestors dying by the numbers during a “Middle Passage” and being sold for raw goods.

Homosexuals have never been–or will be considered–non-citizens by laws of the United States that rob them of inalienable rights.

Homosexuals will never face a societal norm that allows–and even promotes–them to be beaten because they are seen as property and treated like cattle.

All of this is why I've always considered the "gay = racial minority" argument weak sauce.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#79
post #33

Brendan Eich was not fired because he made a political donation. He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code . There is not, and never has been, any justification for denying gays the right to marry except prejudice and bigotry. Every single non-religious argument against gay marriage has been definitively debunked. Therefore, discrimi…

> He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot On what basis is the claim justified that "he was fired" at all? And, if he was fired (or, at least, given the choice to resign or be fired), what evidence is that that it was because of the donation (whatever it might provide "evidence" of), and not because of Mozilla board's concerns about the way he responded to the con…

I simply used "fired" as shorthand for "pressured to resign." And I think it was because of his inadequate response, not the initial donation. If he had fully repented, apologized, admitted he was wrong, I think he might have been forgiven. But that's not what he did. But my point is simply that however you reckon it, his ouster was justified.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#80
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not convenient, it's simply a fact. The discrimination against Brendan was based on something that he did . Discrimination against gays is based on something that they are . The former is morally justifiable, the latter is not. It really is that simple.

I understand you are passionate about this topic but please consider this line of thinking: Here is what I am seeing: "The discrimination against Brendan was based on something that he did." [therefore the discrimination is morally justifiable] He did what he thought was right by his own standards. I don't suppose you are for punishing people who do things based on what they believe is right. Rather, you want to puni…

> He did what he thought was right by his own standards.

I understand that. What I am saying is: his standards are broken.

> Rather, you want to punish Brendan, in part, because of the nature of his belief.

No. You can be a bigot in private if you want to, that is your right. But that's not what Brendon did. He 1) took action to try to get his (and other's) bigotry enshrined into law (successfully, I might add) and 2) when called out years later, he stood by his bigotry. That is why I believe his ouster was justified.

> It is because Brendan had donated to a cause which you disagree with, that you want him to be punished.

No. There are a lot of people who donate to a lot of causes with which I vehemently disagree. If everyone who donated to a cause that I disagree with were fired no one would have a job.

The reason this issue is different is that reasonable people can no longer disagree about it. We've done the experiment. We have gay married people now, and none of the horrible things that were supposed to happen when gays got married have come to pass. There is no argument against gay marriage that has not been utterly and completely debunked, except religious ones, and in the United States making laws based on your religion is out of bounds. Opposing gay marriage is completely indefensible on any grounds other than personal bigotry (or, if you prefer, personal belief, but I believe in calling a spade a spade).

> But who is to say Brendan's standard is better or worst than yours?

My standard is the Constitution of the United States of America, specifically, the fourteenth amendment. You can be a bigot here, but you may not seek to enshrine your bigotry into law. If you don't like it, move to Russia. State-sponsored anti-gay bigotry is alive and well there.

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