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Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

theatlantic.com

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Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#41

Post by nailer »

crazygringo wrote: post #4

You know, the flagging here on HN is starting to get annoying. 30 min ago this was on the front page, now it's at position #91: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533055 Probably because there are 22 comments for 26 points, which is triggering something (or people are flagging it). Everyone clearly wants to talk about this -- it's getting really annoying that it has to keep jumping threads because of whatever HN's…

It might also be the controversy filter - the 'Eich stepping down' article also moved quickly from the front page.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#42

Post by briantakita »

parfe wrote: post #31
briantakita wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was 6 years ago. The majority of Californians supported Prop 8 at that time. Even Barack Obama opposed gay marriage back then. Why aren't we raising the pitchforks against Obama? People change. This is a witch hunt from an action that someone did a long time ago. He didn't even do anything wrong. He just supported a mainstream proposition. He is on the wrong side of history, at that time, sure. But it doesn't de…

>People change. What did Eich do which made you think he reconsidered his position that same sex marriages should be annulled and banned?

https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/inclusiveness-at-mozilla/

He put forth a good-faith effort to promote a position of equality within Mozilla.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#43

Post by sliverstorm »

lisper wrote: post #33

Brendan Eich was not fired because he made a political donation. He was fired because the particular political donation he made is evidence that he is a bigot, that he has a broken moral code . There is not, and never has been, any justification for denying gays the right to marry except prejudice and bigotry. Every single non-religious argument against gay marriage has been definitively debunked. Therefore, discrimi…

It's awfully convenient that his discrimination is immoral, while your discrimination is not only moral but a moral imperative, isn't it?

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#44

Post by npsimons »

sliverstorm wrote: post #36
npsimons wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact that a large chunk of the support for _California's_ Prop8 came from outside the state (specifically: Mormon Utah), especially in the form of money. How do you counter that "sociopolitically"? That aside, I can agree that someone shouldn't be crucified for a bad decision that is well in the past, especially if they've learned the error of their ways.

Ballot strategy is a different topic; I was specifically addressing how a grassroots movement (e.g. the online lynch of Eich) would have to be tackled. Ballot strategy is more about the organized manipulation of swing voters, which is almost certainly what Utah did, so values & beliefs become less important than FUD & counter-FUD.

Ah, thanks for that clarification. I do think that people need to be unafraid to express their opinions, if for no other reason than the slightly cynical one of knowing who you're really dealing with. Sure, it's lousy that there is a figurative lynch mob for Eich. But I do think that that particular position is inconsistent with Mozilla's tenets.

In other words, I don't think that Eich fits very well as a guiding light for mozilla, a position which might very well be embodied by a CEO. He probably shouldn't have become CEO of Mozilla in the first place. I'm fairly certain there are plenty of corporations more aligned with his goals that he can work for, so it's not like he'll be out a job for long. Just wish it could have been handled better, that there had not been a virtual lynch mob, and the inevitable turning of Eich into a martyr for free speech, all the while ignoring that the repercussions for supporting discrimination aren't nearly as bad as some people are making them out to be.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#45

Post by sliverstorm »

crazygringo wrote: post #4

You know, the flagging here on HN is starting to get annoying. 30 min ago this was on the front page, now it's at position #91: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533055 Probably because there are 22 comments for 26 points, which is triggering something (or people are flagging it). Everyone clearly wants to talk about this -- it's getting really annoying that it has to keep jumping threads because of whatever HN's…

#102 now.

Do you think an HN algo is demoting it, or do you think people are using "flag" as a proxy for "disagree"?

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#46

Post by slantyyz »

chez17 wrote: post #12

I wonder if he had denied the holocaust or was an active KKK member if this author would be singing the same tune.

Side note: Where I live, holocaust denial is a crime (considered to be hate speech). I was a little surprised to read that it's actually legal in the US.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#47

Post by Crito »

briantakita wrote: post #42
parfe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People change. What did Eich do which made you think he reconsidered his position that same sex marriages should be annulled and banned?

https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/inclusiveness-at-mozilla/ He put forth a good-faith effort to promote a position of equality within Mozilla.

That post is neither an apology nor a recant. He does not acknowledge that what he did was wrong. It is nothing more than a tone-deaf defense of himself.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#48

Post by [deleted] »

briantakita wrote: post #42
parfe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People change. What did Eich do which made you think he reconsidered his position that same sex marriages should be annulled and banned?

https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/inclusiveness-at-mozilla/ He put forth a good-faith effort to promote a position of equality within Mozilla.

[deleted]

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#49

Post by wglb »

crazygringo wrote: post #4

You know, the flagging here on HN is starting to get annoying. 30 min ago this was on the front page, now it's at position #91: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533055 Probably because there are 22 comments for 26 points, which is triggering something (or people are flagging it). Everyone clearly wants to talk about this -- it's getting really annoying that it has to keep jumping threads because of whatever HN's…

anti-Eich articles were upvoted all over the place

Well, there must have been on the order of 30 submissions of the anti-Eich articles that got no votes, but got flagged early.

Re: Mozilla's Gay-Marriage Litmus Test Violates Liberal Values

#50

Post by obtorto »

Crito wrote: post #5

Utter bullocks. Would we entertain this idea that the tolerant must tolerate intolerance if Prop 8 was about race, rather than gender? Of course not. Nobody pretends that we must not speak ill of racists; certainly nobody pretends that speaking ill of racists makes you just as bad as racists. It is apparent to me that we as a society still have a lot of ground to cover when it comes to the appreciation of the importa…

Please see my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7533691

tl;dr: if this is a matter of equality, marriage itself (as a publicly recognized institution with associated privileges) is discriminatory and needs to be disestablished. If not, then it is completely legitimate to debate whether and on what basis those privileges should be granted.

In either case, the idea that it is morally abhorrent to oppose gay marriage is groundless.

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