A nation of slaves • Hacker News Board

Re: A nation of slaves

#71

Post by gutnor » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #28

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

If my wife didn't have to work for money, she would study archeology and "work" on processing the countless of archeological site that are laying around where she comes from.

That would be work. There are plenty of things that people would do - I know of people that would take care of children, some that would teach, some that would code, some that would cook, ...

However that's not work, "work" in our capitalistic societies has a specific economic meaning: a work is something that produce profit. So for example in education, you have that silly situation where there is a demand and offer, yet there is no teaching job because the optimal profitability has been reached at a level lower than optimal for people.

Re: A nation of slaves

#72

Post by fchollet » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #28

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

In my experience, producing things you care about, and doing so in a way that allows you to express yourself, is what gives meaning and purpose to your life, and what allows you to define who you are. Often, it does not qualify as "work", in that you won't receive money for it.

Making Art would be the canonical example of this. But you actually find it in a many diverse things, from building a cool, unique app to solve a problem you care about, to building beautiful furniture for your house, to writing an essay explaining a view you care about, to elegantly solving a math problem that had been exciting your curiosity.

What does not provide meaning and purpose to your life, is work with no room for self-expression, self-direction and self-definition. Most jobs done "for the money" fall into this category.

Re: A nation of slaves

#73

Post by chc » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

fidotron wrote: post #38

This looks like a lot of words to disguise the fact it's neo-luddism. With technological progress worker roles are eliminated, but the idea is that the market has demand for new currently non-existent things and as the progress enables those things to come into existence creating new jobs as it goes. The much larger problem is people are genuinely getting conditioned to receiving a lot for nothing, and this has disto…

You are making three claims here:

1) That technology replaces jobs.

2) That there is a vast untapped well of jobs that will be created as Point 1 progresses.

3) That the number of jobs in Point 2 is greater the number of jobs in Point 1.

Disagreeing with Points 2 or 3 doesn't make someone a neo-Luddite. Those claims are more about the economy than about technology. I haven't seen any reason to accept them as true. Obviously some new jobs will open up, but the idea that there is a sufficient pool of jobs that are worth a comfortable wage isn't in evidence as far as I can tell.

Re: A nation of slaves

#74

Post by Haul4ss » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

gregpilling wrote: post #27

molsongolden wrote: post #8

This is a stressful topic that gets overwhelming quickly. Things are shifting but it's a slow shift and one that is going to be extremely painful before it gets better. Some interesting work going on with worker coops, parecon, post-scarcity economics, etc... As one of the linked comments noted "Looks like we've built higher-phase communism accidentally. Ooops." The Keynes article he briefly touches on is fantastic h…

While having a beer last week with some friends, the topic turned to the old question "What would you do if you suddenly had $20 million dollars handed to you?". This is an old question of course, on HN it would be called F U money, but it had been asked that day by a customer of my friend Kevin. Kevin makes jewelry tools. His immediate response was "I could buy more tools and machines!", which was my basic response…

The ultimate example of the "what would you do?" question is Bill Gates. If there is any one person on Earth who does not _need_ to work, it's him. And yet he's as busy as he's always been. He's not just funneling money to causes, he's intimately involved in the process.

There's nothing wrong with being industrious. Hard work, meaningful hard work, is rewarding in and of itself.

Re: A nation of slaves

#75

Post by nostromo » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

An additional negative aspect of this mentality is that effort, rather than value, is praised.

Working hard should never be a goal. It should be a means to a goal.

Re: A nation of slaves

#76

Post by Consultant32452 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

glesica wrote: post #26

happyscrappy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

I see you've never worked in a large organization... ;-) Bullshit jobs are largely jobs that managers create and defend in order to expand their managerial fiefdoms. A manager's influence in an organization comes partially from how many people report to him or her. That's the incentive structure that creates many of the bullshit jobs. There are also interpersonal issues in play. For instance, you or I might walk into…

>It is a fallacy to believe that businesses operate efficiently simply because there is a profit motive.

I think the purpose of this adage is that businesses operate more efficiently than government entities. Not with perfect efficiency.

Re: A nation of slaves

#77

Post by imgabe » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:43 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #28

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

> what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opinion?

These are the questions everyone has to answer for themselves ultimately. People like to go around praising everyone they believe to have succeeded and condemning everyone they believe to have failed, but you need to decide for yourself what the purpose of your life is. Otherwise you'll just end up chasing what everyone else believes.

Re: A nation of slaves

#78

Post by conception » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:47 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #67

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

The problem I have with your viewpoint is that it's contrary to what we've seen empirically. Sub-cultures where people don't work, but have their basic needs met aren't exactly flourishing. Work doesn't just give people purpose and dignity, it creates essential social structure without which communities dissolve. I think it's quite possible that we could organize communities around something other than work. Colleges…

Don't work? Or can't work?

Re: A nation of slaves

#79

Post by thedufer » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:49 PM UTC

hnnewguy wrote: post #35

bausson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income mean huge changes: For example, salary may still be partially driven by necessary education / experience, but physical, tiresome or stressfull works would requireask for way higher salaries (because you get up at 4AM to collect garbage when you have no other choice, or when you think it really is worth it, and those jobs would still be necessary) The same way, some companies will have huge problems filli…

> But education industry (and universities) would have to change their methods, because nowadays peoples are willing to commit 100,000's of $ to get a well paying job, this incentive would be gone, the better paying one being the physical labor, with low education requirement. Why would the incentive disappear? A basic income means that people don't make zero when they don't work; filling jobs would still be based on…

People are willing to commit to unfulfilling, exhausting minimum wage jobs because the alternative is to not have a home/decent food/a little spending money. If those needs are already fulfilled, its going to take more to convince people to do something economically necessary but unfulfilling/difficult.

So, the supply drops (many people choose to simply sit out the whole job thing if its going to be unfulfilling). At least, this is the theory.

Re: A nation of slaves

#80

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 3:49 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #49

logfromblammo wrote: post #9

Here's a thought experiment. Mr. Myne has invented an extraordinary machine. This one machine can, using polluted air and brackish water as material inputs, produce a nutritious food substitute and potable water for one person for one entire day with less than $1.30 of grid power. The 2000 kcal daily diet uses about 8000 kcal of electricity and 10 L of dirty water. With this machine, a person can avoid starvation and…

In what sense? Do they stop paying and keep using it or stop paying and go back to getting food and water the normal way? Most of the developed world already has access to potable water for very low prices. Does this machine need to be one per person or can it be scaled to have one giant machine feeding a bunch of people? If the machine can be taken apart and replicated then Mr. Myrne is going to be sol.

It's an allegory. Mr. Myne's machine represents the increased efficiency of future industrial capital. The magical machine is all the advancements of agriculture wrapped up in one black box, and completely automated to remove wages from the equation.

In the future, when robots can make everything you would ever need more efficiently than you can do it yourself, what can you possibly do to pay the owners of the robots for the things the robots make?

There aren't many options. You can own your own robots. You can do something the robot owners want that can't be done by robots. You can abolish individual robot ownership. Whatever you do, you have to think about what happens when producers and consumers are separated by an economic wall, when there's nothing that you can do that a robot cannot do better. Where you have nothing to bring to the market that anyone else wants to buy. It's not just people deciding not to pay. At some point they won't even be able to pay.