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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#71

Post by angersock »

gareim wrote: post #15
codex wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.

The Palmer raids in the early 1900s arrested more than 10,000 people. Of that, 3,500 of them were held indefinitely. Almost all of them were innocent people. In the wake of the 9/11 attacks, 1,200 Muslims were arrested. Some were beaten (this is according to the Justice Department's own Inspector General of the time). Hundreds were held for months. Absolutely none of them were found to be with al-Qaeda. These are jus…

And because of how fucked-up the system is, when they come to pick you up, any number of minor things during that encounter ("Fuck you pig, where's the warrant?", running, etc.) can escalate into resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, or assaulting an officer, and then magically you're in the system "for real" and screwed.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#74

Post by bediger4000 »

rayiner wrote: post #47
sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

Constitutional violations aren't "crimes." E.g. Nobody went to jail for attempting to enforce the unconstitutional election law in citizens united.

By which "touchstone", "Three-pronged Test" or "Most Holy Doctrine" are we supposed to know this? That is, you just wrote a very lawyerly thing that doesn't translate well to what everybody knows and feels.

Mass surveillance is a crime, dude. Somebody needs to be punished to set an example so that civil servants don't overstep their bounds again. Somebody needs to be punished to stop what will certainly turn into an instrument of repression.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#75

Post by Zelphyr »

I would submit that MANY of the laws our Federal government passes are unconstitutional (10th Amendment). Yet they go and do it anyway and we go and vote in another worthless fuck who got there by pandering to us and promising more unconstitutional laws.

WE ARE TO BLAME! They may be the bullet that felled the murder victim but we pulled the trigger.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#76

Post by snowwrestler »

dragonwriter wrote: post #19
meowface wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for a purely hypothetical scenario: If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?

Your hypothetical makes no sense. If they have "probable cause" before tapping his phone, that means that the "left no evidence other than incriminating phone calls" must be false.

Ok let's say they have some evidence that is sufficient to create reasonable suspicion, but probably insufficient to secure a conviction.

Why would it be wrong for the FBI, under the supervision of a court order, to tap this person's phone to see if he is the killer?

Keep in mind this is not a broad NSA dragnet here. This would be a targeted wiretap driven by probable cause and governed by the federal rules of evidence. The GP said "It would be wonderful if all wiretaps were ruled illegal," and we're exploring that idea.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#77

Post by rayiner »

bediger4000 wrote: post #74
rayiner wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitutional violations aren't "crimes." E.g. Nobody went to jail for attempting to enforce the unconstitutional election law in citizens united.

By which "touchstone", "Three-pronged Test" or "Most Holy Doctrine" are we supposed to know this? That is, you just wrote a very lawyerly thing that doesn't translate well to what everybody knows and feels. Mass surveillance is a crime, dude. Somebody needs to be punished to set an example so that civil servants don't overstep their bounds again. Somebody needs to be punished to stop what will certainly turn into an…

It's not a "very lawyerly thing" nor is there any problem translating to what "everybody knows and feels." People have a pretty intuitive grasp on the idea that the recourse for Constitutional violations is almost always for the government to stop doing whatever was unconstitutional. When Brown v. Board ruled segregated schools unconstitutional, nobody was thrown in jail. When California unconstitutionally suppressed free speech through its violent video games legislation, nobody was thrown in jail. When limitations on the use of birth control were declared unconstitutional, nobody was thrown in jail. The line between constitutional action and unconstitutional action can be quite subtle in ways only lawyers can appreciate, and because of that we don't punish constitutional violations (on their own). And normal people grasp that reality, and the percentage of people who think a crime has been committed that warrants jail time for anyone is a polling margin of error.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#78

Post by rayiner »

Zelphyr wrote: post #75

I would submit that MANY of the laws our Federal government passes are unconstitutional (10th Amendment). Yet they go and do it anyway and we go and vote in another worthless fuck who got there by pandering to us and promising more unconstitutional laws. WE ARE TO BLAME! They may be the bullet that felled the murder victim but we pulled the trigger.

The text of the 10th amendment is this: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I submit that nothing can be unconstitutional for violation of the 10th amendment that isn't unconstitutional for some other reason. There is no law that can be justified as an exercise of one of the enumerated powers that nonetheless fails for contravention of the 10th amendment, because any law that can be justified on the basis of an enumerated power + the necessary and proper clause is one that is "delegated to the United States by the Constitution" and thus, literally, not within the scope of the 10th amendment.

Take the healthcare mandate. You can't argue that the 10th amendment makes the healthcare mandate unconstitutional, because it was found to be a valid exercise of the taxing power, which is a power delegated to the United States by the Constitution.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#79

Post by ItendToDisagree »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #56
rhizome wrote: post #2

I'd say it was cowardly and poor leadership for Obama to get this report and still half-step his speech, if not anti-democratic. There's something he won't tell us.

What? You thought a lame duck president was going to up and dismantle a trillion dollar defense measure? Come on...

Or that someone who was a 'constitutional expert', and ran on "Hope and Change" for two consecutive terms would risk nothing politically (in terms of re-election) to dismantle what is obviously an unconstitutional measure?

"COME ON!" -Gob Bluth

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#80

Post by ItendToDisagree »

jonnybgood wrote: post #7

According to the article, three out of five members of the board held the opinion the program was illegal. That's a little bit different than what the title of the article suggests.

The other two insisted that no one should look into the legality.
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