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What Long Hours Really Mean

wearemammoth.com

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Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#71

Post by throwaway9848 »

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #70
throwaway9848 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you're in a startup and you have a significant equity position then you are not working for free, you are directly monetarily motivated. Also, people act to maximize their utility, not necessarily compensation. The act of working hard and hitting deadlines is a form of compensation in itself. Finally, lots of people work a lazy 8 hours (with lots of time spent on the phone, Facebook, personal email) and…

Your last example is kind of irrelevant, because if you're honest with yourself, you're not counting the not-work hours.

That's a fair point with your qualifier. I think a lot of people are not honest with themselves about this, though.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#72

Post by arethuza »

rjurney wrote: post #56
sdoering wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing. I commute not that much (1hr) per workday. I use this time, to listen to relaxing music and reading fiction (and sometimes popular science). After the commute I have to walk 10 minutes, to arrive at my front door. I have to walk through a little park. Really. For me commuting and then walking is my way of coming down. Of letting go of the work, so that I arrive at home free of all the stuff, that happens…

A driving commute makes you unhappy because it is exhausting, and you lose that time. It sounds like your commute is on transit, which isn't so bad... you can read, so that time is still yours. I'd love an hour transit commute. I like to read!

A few years back I changed from a 1 hour drive (with completely unpredictable queues and delays) to get to work to a very pleasant 25 minute walk - which I love.

The only problem is that having got used to this I'd be very reluctant to take a job that I could walk or cycle to - which is a bit limiting.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#73

Post by alexkus »

Long hours often die out when the compensation (i.e. share options) dries up.

I started off working 80+ hours a week, as did many of the others, and loved it. We all did pretty nicely out of it thanks to share options.

But 10 years later, post acquisition(s), and most people who are still here have families and more life outside work. I work part time so I have a day with my daughter and I officially work 33 hours a week, in a "long" week I maybe work 35 hours and I rarely ever take my laptop home. It's all helped me to be a lot more focused in the relatively short time I am at work.

I guess a lot of it is about experience and, as the saying goes, "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#74

Post by kamaal »

I think the article is missing a very important point. Forced long hours are disastrous. But there are plenty of projects where people automatically put in long hours because the experience is rewarding. Either the money is good, or the project is interesting, or there is tons to learn. That varies from person to person.

This is yet another thing that I see with regards to procrastination. It automatically seems to vanish every time I work on some interesting projects, or if good money is involved. If you are unconsciously procrastinating for no good reason, may its a good sign that you find that project no longer rewarding. And its time to move onto something else.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#75

Post by eli_gottlieb »

joelrunyon wrote: post #47
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

New, from Labor Union! WEEKENDS! Two whole days off from work every week!

You buying yet?

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#77

Post by zmitri »

mekarpeles wrote: post #54

During my first startup, I worked 6 or 7 day weeks, 13+ hours a day. At Hyperink, in my first year, I (on my own accord) slept in the office over 30 days. During this entire stretch, I was perhaps more productive and happier than any other time I can remember. The main reason why? The teams and the comradery. I wish this article at least had relevant studies + statistics on this subject as it is not representative of…

I appreciate you offering up fair counter points. I think anyone who reads this article should take a look at your response to understand what "long hours" can mean in a good way. Definitely agree there's a lot more to discuss.

It's worth noting that the original article is content marketing for that company and they do not explicitly state that "culture consulting" is their business in the article. So it's fair to say they are using this as a mechanism to get more customers, and offering a fair point of view is secondary.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#78

Post by mattlutze »

joelrunyon wrote: post #47
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

> Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free.

"[...]deserves an average of 8 hours of work[...]"

"[...]2 days a week free[...]"

I think that's the snake oil you're smelling.

How does society ensure this can happen? With laws, of course! Why, we can just make overtime and >5 in every 7 days with worked hours illegal, it's so simple...

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#79

Post by throwaway9848 »

gruseom wrote: post #2

This is an emotional topic, the discussion of which is nearly always evidence-free. How could one study it objectively?

This is a billion or trillion dollar question, and there are many academics and industry analysts studying this and publishing results. It's just not in an area that the current HN audience is particularly competent in.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#80

Post by talkingquickly »

davorak wrote: post #63
joelrunyon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

Does this case warrant the recoil?

I'd argue it does. Deserve as mentioned in the parent implies some sort of generally accepted human 'right'.

The length of the work day/ work week is fairly arbitrary and definitely up for debate, there are great arguments that actually a three day working week would make far more sense [1].

Imo describing a simple convention in terms of deserve discourages debate and so should be avoided. Something broader such as `a human being deserves not to have to work every waking hour to live` would have been more acceptable as it separates the underlying principle from arbitrary conventions.

[1] http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/entry/21-hours

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