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Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

nytimes.com

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Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#71

Post by pmichaud »

corresation wrote: post #66
hxa7241 wrote: post #30

This is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out. To get a cooperative structure you have to give away surplus -- that is, people with more have to give it to people with less. Yes, redistribution ! That seems a dirty idea in a substantial part of USA politics. So 'pay it forward' chains are a peculiar thing: they summon the feeling of cooperation, in an acceptable way, without actually being effectively co…

This is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out This is ultimately what makes this so bizarre -- in the end such a chain has a single "benefactor", and then a number of what could best be described as victims: People who become a part of this process because of social obligation. Given that the people were already in line and obviously ready to pay for their order, this is unwelcome generosity, and it take…

I strongly disagree that it's worth nothing. In terms of money, sure, someone paid extra, and someone got free stuff, with the bunch intermediaries.

But isn't it true that we collectively spend our lives chasing the ghost of connection, goodwill, and meaning? Don't you think that lacking those is one of the major "bugs" in western society?

So now we have a chain of people who get to participate in an act that brings them together, makes them part of a small "community," and allows to them to exercise both generosity and gratitude.

I think that's extremely valuable, and that someone has figured out how to do that for such a small price is pretty smart.

If you want evidence that my position is closer to reality than yours, consider how strongly stories like this resonate with people, and ask yourself why that's the case.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#72

Post by jodrellblank »

That's a curious effect. Consider:

Situation 1) You drive up to pay for your food, you pay the price you were expecting, you leave with the same mood you arrived with.

Situation 2) You drive up to pay for your food, you find the person ahead has paid for you, you pay nothing, you leave happier because someone has been kind to you and you get a free lunch.

Situation 3) You drive up to pay for your food, and you find the person ahead has paid for you. You feel happier because someone has been kind to you, and in turn you pay for the person behind you. You pay an unexpected amount, possibly more than your own food cost. Now you leave with a lunch you may as well have paid for, but you leave happier.

In situation 2, the free lunch looks like the thing that makes you happier.

In situation 3, you might pay more than your lunch price and yet still leave happier.

In situation 3, everyone in the chain has gone to get some lunch, got some lunch, paid for some lunch ... and left happier.

And yet, if you tried to set it up to work this way - either the drive thru had a rule where you always paid for the person behind you (and if nobody was there you paid a random amount, or the average price of the previous N orders), or if there was a social expectation of same (i.e. like tipping, unwritten but obligatory), then I don't think it would work. In fact, going there expecting to pay an unknown amount seems like it would make me feel worse; and going there expecting a 'free' meal would tend to make me either order much more (it's free) or feel obliged to order less (someone else is paying), but either way be less comfortable about the whole deal.

It's not surprising to me that in the small scale, receiving kindness and/or doing something kind feels good. But it is surprising that on a wider scale, one system where everyone orders/pays/eats has minimal effect on mood and another where everyone orders/pays/eats results in a chain of tens of people feeling happier. (Side questions: It's easy for the article to present this as a chain of happiness, but how many people in the chains of tens of cars didn't feel happier, and felt indifferent? And how many felt worse yet obliged to participate to avoid looking stingy?)

My guess is that if it expands to be a social norm, it will hit the same kind of backlash as tipping does - arguments about whether taking your food and not paying for the people behind makes you a horrible person, or whether it's okay to pay for just the price of your meal for the people behind / whether you should be willing to pay 10% or 20% more than your meal, or whether if you're paying a random price because there's no car behind you, is it okay for the restaurant to come to depend on pocketing the difference for its profits.

Could we systematise the kindness/happiness effect without ruining it?

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#74

Post by Amadou »

jodrellblank wrote: post #72

That's a curious effect. Consider: Situation 1) You drive up to pay for your food, you pay the price you were expecting, you leave with the same mood you arrived with. Situation 2) You drive up to pay for your food, you find the person ahead has paid for you, you pay nothing, you leave happier because someone has been kind to you and you get a free lunch. Situation 3) You drive up to pay for your food, and you find t…

Could we systematise the kindness/happiness effect without ruining it?

Kindness by definition isn't kindness if it is not voluntary.

I think the best you can hope for are social systems that don't reward cruelty.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#75

Post by brianbreslin »

I'm guessing by the time I get to the window to pay, they have already taken the person behind me's order, and know the expected price right?

Sometimes I wish I had the option of tipping the fast food joint employees, as I think it would make them happier. Starbucks too, if you pay with credit card (as we are increasingly doing so), then we don't have that option anymore.

To add to the last point, I'd like to be able to give money direct to the employees, as I feel they wouldn't get a fair piece of it if the company was allowed to disburse it.

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#76

Post by marcoperuano »

edw519 wrote: post #63

"Pay it forward." THIS is why I'm a programmer. Sure, I'm a professional and I earn quite well, but any customer I've ever had will tell you that the value they received from me far exceeded what it cost them. Delivering customer value. That's it for me. I'm really much less interested in all the other things we talk about here: languages, algorithms, hacks, investments, technology, etc. I'd rather hack my customers'…

My mom is a single mother who worked really hard to give my brother, sister, and me what we have today. Even now she's still working in some awful factory to pay the bills. While I'm in some office making much more with less stress. Its crazy an depressing. So, I'm paying it back I guess. I help her with a good chunk of her bills. I hope one day I have enough income to pay everything for her, it'll be her reward for being a great parent. That day is coming soon!! www.marcoledesma.com

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#77

Post by jodrellblank »

Amadou wrote: post #74
jodrellblank wrote: post #72

That's a curious effect. Consider: Situation 1) You drive up to pay for your food, you pay the price you were expecting, you leave with the same mood you arrived with. Situation 2) You drive up to pay for your food, you find the person ahead has paid for you, you pay nothing, you leave happier because someone has been kind to you and you get a free lunch. Situation 3) You drive up to pay for your food, and you find t…

Could we systematise the kindness/happiness effect without ruining it? Kindness by definition isn't kindness if it is not voluntary. I think the best you can hope for are social systems that don't reward cruelty.

What definition? Why not?

Unkindness and cruelty still exist if they are built into systems, don't they?

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#78

Post by lotharbot »

mzahir wrote: post #27

This reminds me of Jonathan's card, which was shortly exploited as an 'experiment' and ultimately frozen by Starbucks https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2877779

Jonathan's Card had one key characteristic that made it exploitable (even if Sam hadn't been able to transfer money off of it): there was a reliable way of knowing how much money was on the card, and therefore a reliable way of choosing when to spend (or siphon) money from the card to get high value. I'm not aware of a reliable way of knowing that the car in front of you is "paying it forward".

That makes me curious: is it possible to exploit by starting a pay-it-forward chain and then circling back around with a bigger order? Would there be a particular number of cars or time of day or order size that would maximize the likelihood of getting your final order paid for, and would it have a positive expectation when accounting for the initial outlay and the time commitment?

[Note that I am not advocating actually trying this; I'm satisfied with it as a thought experiment.]

Re: Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For

#80

Post by dictum »

bsenftner wrote: post #45

I suspect a carefully coordinated PR campaign for Chick-fil-A, as I've noticed uncharacteristically, frequent positive references to them in unrelated news items lately. I consume a lot of news, and noticing "fake" planted positive references in tangentially related articles is par for the course for any company that stepped in deep shit like they did. I suspect at least one of these positive comments here to be a pl…

pg wrote about the art of carefully disguised PR campaigns: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
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