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If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

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71–80 of 84 posts

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#71
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subject to debate, and everyone's gonna want to think that their "side" is the most enlightened... (end disclaimer) I think a lot of liberals see conservatives as authoritarian in that they support the police/military parts of government. Even your tea party libertarians tend to see the police/military as 'our people', culturally speaking and as a necessary part of the state philosophically speaking. Liberals tend to…

I'm not a member of either side - I'm solidly in the camp of the radical individualist libertarians, both politically and in terms of survival strategy. I'm curious where you get the idea that liberals distrust the police/military. I certainly haven't observed this trend. Liberals tend to favor disarming everyone except the police/military, for example, while conservatives want to retain the ability of their communit…

[deleted]

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#72
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or am I misinterpreting something here? To be brief, yes. Conservationism has historically been associated with a strong central government, under the belief that a selected group of suitable people are better at governing than the general population. The definition of "suitable" has changed throughout the years: typical examples are "King chosen by divine right" or "general with enough troops to seize the capital"…

I'm not sure where you live, but American conservatives favor power in the states (i.e. decentralization). American liberals favor power in the federal government (i.e. centralization).

> I'm not sure where you live, but American conservatives favor power in the states

American conservatives say that in the context of debates over federal engagement in certain types of government programs as a reason for opposing them there (which, incidentally, the same conservatives also oppose at the State level), but not about the kind of programs they support, like, say, national defense.

The areas that American conservatives make the biggest stinks about state power are identical to the ones where they make the biggest stink about the function not being a proper role of government at all.

> American liberals favor power in the federal government (i.e. centralization).

Er, no, American liberals don't. American liberals are often characterized as supporting centralization by American conservatives when they support the federal government doing things that American conservatives don't think government should do at all. (They are, surprisingly enough, not accused by American conservatives of "opposing centralization" when they oppose the federal government doing things American conservatives think it should do, e.g., spending more money than the rest of the world combined on national defense.)

Both American conservatives and American liberals tend to conduct multipronged efforts to get the same general policy preferences adopted at both state and federal levels (and tend to push all levers of power available, executive, legislative, and judicial -- and, at the state level, direct citizen initiative) at both levels.

In addition, American conservatives tend to accuse American liberals of centralization whenever they push a policy conservatives don't approve of at the federal level (particularly through legislative action), of seeking to "overturn the will of the people" whenever they seek to overturn a policy conservatives approve of through judicial action, of dictatorship whenever they seek to implement policy conservatives oppose executive action, and of infringing on the authority of the executive when they seek to implement a policy conservatives disapprove of through legislative action, at least, when the executive is in hands viewed as friendlier to conservatives.

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But never the reverse. Never /bitter.

Are you joking? Remember that Obama was against warrantless wiretaps during his candidacy. http://thisishistorictimes.com/2009/04/all-the-better-to-hea...

Yes, that's my point. What had formerly been an exclusively "conservative" position became a matter of complete hegemony.

Obama has pretty much pissed off most of the constituency that formerly called itself "liberal".

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#74
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subject to debate, and everyone's gonna want to think that their "side" is the most enlightened... (end disclaimer) I think a lot of liberals see conservatives as authoritarian in that they support the police/military parts of government. Even your tea party libertarians tend to see the police/military as 'our people', culturally speaking and as a necessary part of the state philosophically speaking. Liberals tend to…

I'm not a member of either side - I'm solidly in the camp of the radical individualist libertarians, both politically and in terms of survival strategy. I'm curious where you get the idea that liberals distrust the police/military. I certainly haven't observed this trend. Liberals tend to favor disarming everyone except the police/military, for example, while conservatives want to retain the ability of their communit…

The liberal base seems to like "clean" wars, in the style of Clinton and Obama: occasional military actions where very few Americans die. While there is a sizable anti-war segment of the Democratic party, they are in the minority, and have nowhere else to go. Patton and Carlin had it right: Americans like war (which is easy to do for those who've never been in one). They just disagree over details.

Domestically, mainstream Democrats are also a little schizophrenic: they want to leave defense to the police, but they usually support restraints on police regarding profiling, due process, etc. (Those who join the police skew conservative, as authority and violence are intertwined; liberals know this instinctually, therefore feeling conflicted about depending on them.)

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#75
post #67
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider applying the r/K Selection Theory to politics. Makes a disturbing amount of sense: http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/the-theory/rk-sele...

This makes about as much sense as applying continental drift to explain the series finale of Breaking Bad.

Well I don't know. The possible analogies are interesting: a social system is a reproductive strategy, it's a way of breeding and educating your population to serve some defined purpose (the objective of the system). Being able to characterize those systems broadly would be helpful.

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#76
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subject to debate, and everyone's gonna want to think that their "side" is the most enlightened... (end disclaimer) I think a lot of liberals see conservatives as authoritarian in that they support the police/military parts of government. Even your tea party libertarians tend to see the police/military as 'our people', culturally speaking and as a necessary part of the state philosophically speaking. Liberals tend to…

As a conservative I find it ridiculous when liberals talk of fascist police while pushing to limit civilian gun rights. We can make straw men all day. Regardless of arguing against caricatures of the 'other' side. I think a majority of Americans could agree on a majority of issues. The problem is the gamesmanship of politics.

"pushing to limit civilian gun rights" is sort of willfully deceptive, as it implies gun-grabbing where most liberals just want registration along the same level as a driver's license. At least you acknowledged that it's a straw man.

Most conservatives do actually support more spending on military/security and less spending on everything else -- that's not a straw man position really, I was just describing a slant on it.

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are flipping conservatives and liberals. Liberals tend to rely on authority and hierarchies (the state, and similar authority figures), whereas conservatives tend to rely on communities and relationships (church, family, secular community orgs). Or am I misinterpreting something here?

> Or am I misinterpreting something here? To be brief, yes. Conservationism has historically been associated with a strong central government, under the belief that a selected group of suitable people are better at governing than the general population. The definition of "suitable" has changed throughout the years: typical examples are "King chosen by divine right" or "general with enough troops to seize the capital"…

I think you wrote "conservationism" where you meant "conservatism"...

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you joking? Remember that Obama was against warrantless wiretaps during his candidacy. http://thisishistorictimes.com/2009/04/all-the-better-to-hea...

Yes, that's my point. What had formerly been an exclusively "conservative" position became a matter of complete hegemony. Obama has pretty much pissed off most of the constituency that formerly called itself "liberal".

Wiretapping and spying has been a "liberal" position (by the conventional definition, not necessarily lukifers) at least since the Clinton era. Republicans got on board with this only in the Bush era.

Joe Biden's reaction to the Patriot Act was simply to protest that Ashcroft just copied his 1996 bill.

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are flipping conservatives and liberals. Liberals tend to rely on authority and hierarchies (the state, and similar authority figures), whereas conservatives tend to rely on communities and relationships (church, family, secular community orgs). Or am I misinterpreting something here?

> Or am I misinterpreting something here? To be brief, yes. Conservationism has historically been associated with a strong central government, under the belief that a selected group of suitable people are better at governing than the general population. The definition of "suitable" has changed throughout the years: typical examples are "King chosen by divine right" or "general with enough troops to seize the capital"…

This definition of "liberal" is frequently termed "classical liberal" for clarity. Both party-line Democrats and party-line Republicans draw on some of the ideas there when politically convenient. Libertarians probably have the best claim in the American political spectrum on a strict adherence to classical-liberal principles (arguably to the exclusion of other valuable principles, and arguably with an overly narrow focus in application - "policy debates should not appear one-sided", to borrow a phrase).

Re: If You Live Near Other People, You're Probably a Democrat.

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's my point. What had formerly been an exclusively "conservative" position became a matter of complete hegemony. Obama has pretty much pissed off most of the constituency that formerly called itself "liberal".

Wiretapping and spying has been a "liberal" position (by the conventional definition, not necessarily lukifers) at least since the Clinton era. Republicans got on board with this only in the Bush era. Joe Biden's reaction to the Patriot Act was simply to protest that Ashcroft just copied his 1996 bill.

In any international discussion, "liberal" used bare is going to be tremendously confusing - there is no "conventional definition", there are 10 different definitions each of which is mainstream in a different place.

Wiretapping and spying was a Democratic position under Clinton, and the virtuous Republicans opposed it. Wiretapping and spying was a Republican position under Bush and the virtuous Democrats opposed it. Do you honestly expect, though, that there wasn't spying under Bush Sr., who had been head of the CIA? And obviously wiretapping and spying was J. Edgar Hoover's position under a host of administrations of both parties.

Really, in recent times wiretapping and spying support/opposition in politicians seems to better track the power held by the politician than anything else.

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