Guys over the pond... time for another tea party? 'taxation without representation'? ...'taxation without services'?
Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
71–80 of 85 posts
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, now you agree Iraq invasion was a mass murder? Once USA extort money going from country A to country B for failing to comply, it's no longer a diplomatic issue, that's an international crime. And it was from the day one - USA threatening financial institutions in other countries, giving orders to them directly, that's audaceous.
As I understand it, the only way the USG can enforce those orders is if the financial institution has a branch/subsidiary in the US. If they don't, I think they are free to ignore the requirement.
I heard it tries to go one step beyond that. If Deutsche Bank has operations in the US, it falls under FATCA. BUT it is also required to not do business with some small German bank that has no operation in the US that does not comply with FATCA; i.e. DB is used to coerce the small German bank with no US operation to report its American customers in Germany to the US.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
US citizens living abroad are able to avail themselves of services through embassies and consulates for ordinary problems and call upon the USMC etc. for assistance with extraordinary ones.
If that is what the embassies and consulates are for than I wouldn't have a problem with that. At the moment I have to call a number to make an appointment and get shaked down by consulate security to get in to file an announcement of birth. I also have to pay a fee for that same announcement. I think you are under the impression US embassies are a country club that expats just go to and have a cocktail from time to…
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Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#74"1,131 cases to 189 in 2012. It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad"
Yes, I would say that 0.019 percent of the passport-holding population currently living abroad (presumably biased toward the more wealthy passport holders) is a small proportion indeed. What is the comparable figure for people from other countries who renounce their citizenship each year to become naturalized United States citizens? It is surely much higher.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, although there is a high deductible (~$80k, as I recall). It's never been something I needed to worry about, but FATCA most definitely will be. I don't know the answer to your last question, but I've never personally heard of another nation with similar policies.
Do you still have to file US taxes though? Say you make $60K in Germany, well under the deductible, and do not file US taxes for 10 years. Is there a penalty just for not filing? penalties can cripple you.
Yes, I believe you are still obligated to file. Not sure how rigidly that's policed, though.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#76One thing not mentioned in the article, "Renunciation of U.S. citizenship was free until July 2010, at which time a fee of $450 was established." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#Uni...
Is this effectively a fee for having a US embassy process paperwork on your behalf, or are they actually trying to charge a fee for individuals to renounce their citizenship? It seems to me that the whole idea of renouncing one's citizenship is to sever all ties previously held to the country and assume the status of a foreigner in the eyes of that country. How they would collect that $450 if that is the case is beyond me.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
And war isn't murdering people? Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words. You can argue who is the owner of the money being taxed, but you can't say something is or isn't because it's lawful.
My ISP insists that I must allow them to steal my money on monthly basis or they would cut my Internet! Taxes are not theft, but a membership fee. Its perks are roads, fire department, schools, laws and law enforcement, protection from foreign armies and basically keeping the society together.
If you don't like what the ISP charges you, you can cancel your Internet subscription. You're not allowed to say "well I don't drive, so I don't want to pay for roads".
In addition, about 50% of the federal budget these days is Social Security+Medicare+Medicaid. Most of the things you listed are paid from local/state taxes, which are much smaller. Two thirds of the federal budget goes to pensions, welfare and military expenses. Roads, laws and law enforcement aren't where the bulk of taxes goes.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not equivalent to, but certainly shares similar characteristics through coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor.
Paying one's taxes as a citizen is not "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor", nor does paying one's taxes as a citizen who receives the benefits of one's government in any way share similar characteristics with indentured servitude or slavery. Slavery was so much more than the "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor". And indentured servitude is a far different thing--it was a practice to enslave s…
If you ask me, "Are you willing to pay for generational theft, subsidies for the health insurance industry, and killing brown people on the other side of the planet?" I will probably say something like "No." It looks like an agreeable meaning of "coerce" is "to make (someone) do something by using force or threats." So if someone, or some group of people, convinces me to fund the causes listed above by means of threatening to kidnap or murder me (murder being reserved for those who resist kidnapping), it seems reasonable to say that I am coerced.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
So because other countries take an arm and a leg in taxes, but the USA only takes an arm, we should shut up and be happy? /FlawedLogic.
Give me a good example of a developed country with generally happy citizens who pay less taxes than we do, then we can use that country as an example of how a low tax society could work without failing spectacularly. Barring that, it might be possible that the libercrazian no/low-tax country might still work; we just have no evidence and/or experience that it does. Whenever I hear Americans complain about taxes, I pl…
Surely complexity of the tax code is important too? Anyway, Hong Kong is a very developed and modern place, and taxes are much lower here.
Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Paying one's taxes as a citizen is not "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor", nor does paying one's taxes as a citizen who receives the benefits of one's government in any way share similar characteristics with indentured servitude or slavery. Slavery was so much more than the "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor". And indentured servitude is a far different thing--it was a practice to enslave s…
If you ask me, "Are you willing to pay for generational theft, subsidies for the health insurance industry, and killing brown people on the other side of the planet?" I will probably say something like "No." It looks like an agreeable meaning of "coerce" is "to make (someone) do something by using force or threats." So if someone, or some group of people, convinces me to fund the causes listed above by means of threa…
You're only being coerced if you are also coerced to not commit murder, not drink and drive, not steal other people's things, not rob banks, not set fire to other people's things, etc.
Calling paying legally authorized taxes coercion is abusing language to make a stupid political point. Calling tax-paying "generational theft" is the same thing.
Besides, you're missing the point of the parent statement--comparing slavery and indentured servitude to the "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor". That is, plainly speaking, total bullshit, and a misappropriation of slavery & indentured servitude for a stupid political point about not liking taxes.