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Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

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Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#71
post #67

I've been thinking of alternative destinations. New Zealand, home of exile Kim Dotcom, could work. But what about Sweden? Aren't they very neutral? Or Switzerland, the nation that's synonymous with neutrality?

I don't believe there is any country in the world, except Russia and China, that will not kowtow to US when pressured. Snowden made a very smart choice by going to HK.

Can we add Ecuador to that list? Say what you will about the current administration, they are not kowtowing to the US or Britain even under a lot of pressure.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#72
post #40
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system. The whole point of the Snowden story is that the government is not trustworthy in this era. I would not trust the US government to give him justice any more than they did Aa…

"Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system." You're kidding me right?!? You honestly think the era he lived in was fair and just to people like him? Do you know how many lynchings there were in Florida alone? Does th…

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/resources/article/an...

Do any of you believe that there would have been a new Letter from Birmingham Jail if Snowden were imprisoned? Keep in mind the US authorities are calling this civil rights whistleblowing "treason". Aiding the terrorists and enemy combatant status cannot be far behind.

Like it or not, the rule of law has been badly damaged by the endless emergency.

These days you do your nonviolent resistance from behind the safety of a diplomatic minefield.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Snowden did the best he could do under the circumstances. Expose the truth, run to a safe place, and then identify himself publicly. He's not running, he just prefers freedom to a jail cell. Who doesn't? MLK and Rosa Parks weren't facing 100 years in jail or the death penalty, were they?

Don't forget that MLK was shot.

And probably not even by the guy that went to prison for it.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#74

I'm curious... is there anything currently preventing him from flying to a further country as well? I'm not aware of there being a warrant out for his arrest or anything yet... What would happen today if he just hopped on the next flight to Iceland or Ecuador or wherever else (or let's just assume nonstop flights)?

Apparently INTERPOL can issue red notices that are not public. So its possible if he tried to leave Hong Kong under his own ID he'd get arrested. I assume he doesn't have a real forged passport. But how hard do they check for leaving Hong Kong? Could he get to Iceland and instead of trying to fool Icelandic passport control, just request asylum?

Pretty hard?

China has steep controls on its own citizens leaving China. Hong Kong is now part of China, and probably a favoured way out.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#75
post #68
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we want him to end up like Manning? Why would anybody wish that upon another human? It is a barbaric thing to suggest.

I do not wish (or expect) for Snowden to be sentenced with capital punishment if he were to turn himself in. However any attorney or advocacy organization will find it extremely arduous to prove that he did this in good faith. Fleeing only makes it worse. It is universally considered a symptom of insincerity. An insincerity of mission and an insincerity of motive. It will be an entirely unconvincing case even if it w…

The possibility of being executed is merely one facet of the issue here...

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#76
post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

I haven't seen any articles discuss a major issue: his immigration status. If he's on a visitor/business visa he likely only has 6-12 months in the country. If he's there as a tourist, 90 days. If he overstays his visa, he can be arrested and deported.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#77
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MLK was protected by his fame. Rosa Park's act was entirely symbolic. Ellsberg was protected by the fact that he had given the information to a number of extremely influential Senators; something I'm sure Snowden would have loved to have done, if he was lucky enough to have that kind of access, and if there were still such thing as a senator who is honest and cares about the constitution. (Or if "journalists" still b…

Except that MLK wasn't protected by his fame. It's not just the gov't that is the risk.

There are questions surrounding who actually shot him. The man who went to prison for it may have been set up, as he denied personally shooting Dr. King.

MLK was planning a huge "live in" on the National Mall to pursue greater income equality and there were plenty of interested parties that would have wanted to prevent that.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#78
post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

Not a resident, but I have spent some time there. Phone service is indeed cheap. SIM cards are bought at every kind of venue right on down to carts on the street. No ID needed, no contract. You give money, you get SIM card with nn minutes. Handsets are cheap too, really cheap, like throw away cheap. I hadn't thought about that from a signals intelligence perspective, but I bet that fact combined with the density of p…

Yeah, I was also amazed at how good the 3g was on a random sim I bought at the airport. Works great in the metro too which is awesome coming from Melbourne and having no connectivity between stations in our metro.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#79
I live in Hong Kong, and can verify that it is absolutely a technologist's paradise and an extremely easy place to move around in.

Phones are incredibly cheap; the cheapest functional Android knockoff smartphones will run you about $50-80 (all prices in USD for simplicity), maybe less if you get it in Kowloon. "Burner"-style phones can be as low as $8. SIM cards are essentially free (usually about $8-10 deposit on the card) and minutes are as lower than $0.01 each[1]. Data is about $5/GB prepaid. All cash, no credit cards, no checks. You don't even have to give them your name.

Coverage is completely universal here because the density is absurd. It's a cell phone carrier's dream; one tower can potentially reach nearly a million people. Taxi drivers here regularly have half a dozen cell phones in their cars. One for personal use, one for work, one for less savory work... who knows, there is always a lot going on, especially in relation to gambling.

Additionally, the broadband is great (and cheap) - I regularly get as much as 250mbps or more to the US from my home connection. I can say with confidence that I browse US sites more quickly from here than I could from my home connection when I lived in the states. The ping is of course higher but it is not as bad as you'd think (150-180ms).

There are great technology centers like Cyberport[2] that will rent you a desk or tiny office with gigabit internet for very little money.

It is easy to disappear in HK because it is so dense. While housing is not cheap it is available and some landlords will take cash. Being white earns you stares here, it is well known that the Chinese suffer from the same problem we do; it is difficult to tell white people apart, much like we may find it difficult to tell some ethnic Chinese apart. I am speculating but it could be used to his advantage: with a hairstyle change and contact lenses it would be difficult for a US citizen to identify Snowden, going only on the news photos. It would be even harder for a foreigner. That is, if the novelty of seeing a young nerdy white man doesn't arouse suspicion alone.

Members of the expat community have been setting up rallies for Snowden and they have been getting decent attendance. The South China Morning Post has been very favorable in their framing of his actions. I think the populace here is very sympathetic to his plight.

As for the legal system, I can't comment; I just work here, man.

[1] Keep in mind, prices are in HKD - 1USD = 7.76 HKD. http://one2free.hkcsl.com/jsp/prepaid_sim_card/o2f_local_pre...

[2] http://www.cyberport.hk/en

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#80
I actually don't think Hong Kong was a great choice, as it brings up the whole question of foreign intelligence service involvement. He absolutely should have picked a common law jurisdiction (like Hong Kong), and probably not US/UK/Canada, but NZ would have worked pretty well.

He's not "in hiding" from the intelligence services. I suspect even second tier countries know where he is.

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