Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk • Hacker News Board

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#71

Post by jokoon » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:07 PM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #64

Confusion wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider obtaining a loan an unfair advantage?

is it a Governmet loan? I mean like Government taking money from the competent people who know what they are doing, and giving it to ucompetent, hey here you have money so you can compete with competent guys using their money! I know that's the model in the US banking now. Didn't realize that it works for car manufacturers too.

I really don't understand what is the problem here. Sometimes the market can't do things properly, and there, tesla motor is a great example.

A consumer market is not always great when you want to make new things, because both consumers AND current manufacturers will say they are happy with what they have, and won't see your initiative like a good thing. Consumers absolutely can't have a say in anything because they're not educated and they're financing big existing groups.

Money acts as some sort of vote, that's not very hard to understand.

> hey here you have money so you can compete with competent guys using their money!

It's a loan, it's not like tesla stole money. To top it off, it was reimbursed 9 years early. What can you be angry about ? That businesses as usual are not given loans by the government ? Imagine the chaos it would create. Government is just stimulating innovation, it works, and now it's like the soviets are rigging the game. The invisible hand is a theory, not a proven thing that always works in practice.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#72

Post by joezydeco » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:13 PM UTC

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10

mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

Maybe he's referring to the resistance from states that mandate a dealer network and won't let him sell directly to the consumer?

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#73

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:17 PM UTC

bob13579 wrote: post #70

ss6754 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are u serious??? have you forgotten how the government bailed out all the major car manufacturers? here is the link to remind http://useconomy.about.com/od/criticalssues/a/auto_bailout.h... tesla got only 500mln while others got BILLIONS

It's okay to give them half a billion dollars in loans because others got billions? Why not be outraged at everyone involved? The industry is colossally inefficient.

Inefficient when it comes to innovating, yes. In any industry dominated by powerful incumbents and where the startup capital costs are extremely high, you do need outside intervention (I.e. a subsidy in the form of a loan) to help newcomers.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#74

Post by simonh » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:17 PM UTC

tocomment wrote: post #69

macmac wrote: post #4

The passion fuelling that emotion is going to put people on Mars, crush GM and take you from SF to LA in 25 mins.

My standing question for that is wouldn't a launch loop have to be located over the ocean, at least say 10 miles out? And then wouldn't it take much longer 25 minutes to take a boat trip out, take the trip and then take a boat trip back in at your destination? Edit: On second thought if you're spending launch loop kind of money maybe building a 10 mile bridge out to the station isn't that big of a cost?

From what he's said publicly, I don't see how it can be a launch loop or anything much like it.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#75

Post by scythe » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:18 PM UTC

qwanzi77 wrote: post #19

wjk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did all car manufacturers try to get a $500 million loan to build electric cars?

No. And why should it matter? Tesla got the loan. Others didn't. How is that fair?

Tesla qualified. Their application was reviewed by a board of People Who Know Things.

I know this because my aunt, a respected physicist, sat on such a board. They're not throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks; they know what they're doing, and they're not picking winners and losers, they're playing the same game every investor plays: trying to decide who is going to win or lose before it happens. Tesla got the loan because they won it. Which is fair to the same degree as any other investment process. Unless, that is, you have some additional knowledge of corruption in the review process.

Solyndra should have proven that the government cannot "pick winners and losers" even if it wants to -- as long as the government isn't the primary player in the market, which is unfair, but also isn't what happened with Tesla.

Or GM, for that matter.

As for dealerships, the reason Tesla doesn't have to go through them is because they don't have any preexisting agreements with the dealerships, in the same way that, for example, someone who agreed to take out a student loan has to pay that back, but someone who didn't go to college, or went to a cheaper school, doesn't have to. There's nothing unfair about that either. Sure, dealerships are a pain: let's drive them all out of business, please. I'll be first on board.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#76

Post by tocomment » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #74

tocomment wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My standing question for that is wouldn't a launch loop have to be located over the ocean, at least say 10 miles out? And then wouldn't it take much longer 25 minutes to take a boat trip out, take the trip and then take a boat trip back in at your destination? Edit: On second thought if you're spending launch loop kind of money maybe building a 10 mile bridge out to the station isn't that big of a cost?

From what he's said publicly, I don't see how it can be a launch loop or anything much like it.

From the last discussion [1] I thought launch loop was our best guess?

How does a launch loop conflict with anything he's said publicly?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796880

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#77

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

qwanzi77 wrote: post #10

mtgx wrote: post #5

He gets like that sometimes, and you can see he really cares about the products he's making and the change he's trying to make in the world. So sometimes he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair. He became a bit emotional in another interview where he said that Neil Armstrong was opposed to the idea of having SpaceX making commercial rockets (or any other…

"he seems deeply affected that others are so much against him, especially when they aren't playing fair" How exactly is Tesla playing fair? Did all car manufacturers receive a $500 million loan to build electric cars or something?

This is a complicated topic where your simple notion of "fairness" doesn't quite apply.

In any industry where there are powerful incumbents and extremely high startup capital costs, the startups often need to be given outside assistance (i.e. government subsidy in the form of a loan) to have a chance of competing with their innovations. This is not ideal, but it is a necessary evil.

Furthermore, the incumbents had plenty of chance to innovate. What many of them did instead was to go bankrupt and ask for bailouts. Tell me: would you trust these companies with another $500 million of taxpayer money? It's like giving more stipend to a child who has proven irresponsible with money.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#78

Post by pavs » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

joshuamerrill wrote: post #2

I was there today. The emotion was shared and felt by everyone in the room. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like this could ultimately become a serious free speech issue. Edit: I ask a very dry question at the 45 minute mark. I'm pretty easy to spot because I'm wearing Google Glass.

Not to sound mean (and people usually say that when they know that they could come out as mean), but for some reason that reminded me of people who walks around with bluetooth headset and talking to themselves, surrounded by a lot of people.

Its just me though.

Otherwise your question was interesting and unpredictable, almost all the other questions were something I would have thought about asking. You know the usual stuff.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#79

Post by pavs » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:27 PM UTC

zalew wrote: post #45

rubinelli wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Officially, to make sure customers have a dealership close by where they can have their cars properly serviced without delays or long trips. In practice, to protect dealers with fat margins and terrible commercial practices.

dealers have fat margins in the US? I'd be suprised. around here they are capped by the manufacturers and raised only after achieving goals that are impossible for newcommers to meet. the money is made on service, without that you'd basically sink cash into a very expensive gallery. setting up a dealership is tough, very expensive and very risky.

This is now, I think the law itself is quite old. There was a time when dealership was very very profitable business.

Re: Minute 53, very emotional moment by Elon Musk

#80

Post by scythe » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 12:29 PM UTC

bob13579 wrote: post #66

Confusion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How exactly did Tesla earn an "A" up to that point? Business plan, business model, customer research, advances already made, further along, ... There are dozens of possible reasons to loan $500M to Tesla, but not to another company. There are dozens of possible reasons why you would loan $1000 to one friend, but not to another. Someone else wouldn't know those reasons, but if the friend complained about you being u…

So the government is now a venture capitalist or investment bank and should be encouraged to pick winners and losers now? It's quite funny that these Tesla Roadsters are being bought by rich Americans, and being subsidized by average Americans, and yet there seems to be no outrage from those purportedly upset about inequality. The average American isn't benefiting by enriching billionaires and millionaires with their…

>So the government is now a venture capitalist or investment bank and should be encouraged to pick winners and losers now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_General_Theory_of_Employmen...

We've come a long way since the 1930s, haven't we? Yes, the government can do these things, and -gasp- it works, on a small scale, under certain conditions (economic depression).

The "$500m subsidy" to Tesla costs taxpayers zero after being repaid -- but represents a loan from the median taxpayer of about, oh, I dunno, seventy-five cents.