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Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

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Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#71

Post by sakopov »

vadman wrote: post #19
sakopov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if anyone from the Soviet era would tell you that antisemitism did not exist. I don't know why any Russian would tell you otherwise. It always did and it does now. Russians are incredibly discriminatory, especially in bigger cities. When i was around 7 i had adults come up to me and tell me that i am worthless shit because i am half Armenian and half Russian.

Same thing happened to me, only it was in Armenia and grown-up Armenians were talking sh*t to me for being a half-Russian kid (think 1st-grade age). I wouldn't say "Russians are discriminatory", just "people from the former USSR are usually discriminatory". From my experience, in both countries, Armenia was a lot worse.

I have a lot of family living in Armenia and i never caught any discrimination when i was out and about in Yerevan. Not towards me or my mother who is Russian. And I'm more Russian-looking than Armenian, with light skin and brown hair. Just my observation. Of course a few visits don't measure up to years living there. So, i can totally see what you described happen there. I wonder if this was always a problem in USSR. Every time i hear my parents talk about the good old days, they seem to describe pretty amazing, peaceful time. Especially the 70s. And now...

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#73

Post by redwood »

liber8 wrote: post #56
davidroberts wrote: post #21

I think the US unofficial quotas against Asians are somewhat similar to the Soviet ones against Jews, though not so spitefully motivated. Essentially, it boils down to "We don't want our own kids to have to compete on even terms with these hard-working, incredibly studious outsiders."

Can you explain about these "unofficial quotas against Asians"? I'm genuinely curious if this actually exists. Note that less than 5% of Americans are Asian, but: 40% of UC students are asian (and it's higher at Cal, UCLA and UCSD (i.e. the better schools)).[1] 23% of Stanford students are asian (probably higher since that excludes "international" and "decline to state").[2] 26% of MIT students are.[3] In other words…

I assume the poster is referring to the effect of affirmative action for under-represented minorities which can be viewed as effectively taking away spots from over-represented minorities. Of course it also takes spots away from the majority group.

Or alternatively perhaps the poster refers to latent preference for 'blue blood'-connected individuals and networks?

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#74

Post by redwood »

benesch wrote: post #15
patrickgzill wrote: post #12

"It was understood that since Jews represented a minority percentage of the overall population, the university would only accept that percentage into the student body. This was in line with the Soviet Union’s unofficial policy of anti-semitism in the post-Stalin era." So, quotas... are there quotas, official or unofficial, in the USA university system?

US laws essentially encourage unwritten quotas. While actual numbers are prohibited [0], race is explicitly listed as a legal factor to consider in admission. (Supreme court decision; can't remember the citation.) So you can't say "we're letting in 300 of RACE this year." But, when you have 301 of RACE, you can say, "I feel like the number of RACE we've admitted this year negatively impacts the diversity of our stude…

It is different, however, to say "we want more of minority X at the expense of the majoity" than to say 'the maximum number of minority X is Y"

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#75

Post by vadman »

sakopov wrote: post #71
vadman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing happened to me, only it was in Armenia and grown-up Armenians were talking sh*t to me for being a half-Russian kid (think 1st-grade age). I wouldn't say "Russians are discriminatory", just "people from the former USSR are usually discriminatory". From my experience, in both countries, Armenia was a lot worse.

I have a lot of family living in Armenia and i never caught any discrimination when i was out and about in Yerevan. Not towards me or my mother who is Russian. And I'm more Russian-looking than Armenian, with light skin and brown hair. Just my observation. Of course a few visits don't measure up to years living there. So, i can totally see what you described happen there. I wonder if this was always a problem in USSR…

I didn't try to invalidate your words :), just sharing my experience. I was also more Russian-looking, especially at a younger age.

Perhaps I was just caught in a bad moment (just after the collapse of the USSR, on the wave of "independence" of Armenia). Or perhaps it's my first name, which is totally Russian (my last name is Armenian and not even Russified like yours - I suppose it's kind of a curious juxtaposition of the 2). I was constantly fighting other kids in the street and had to go to the only Russian elementary school in Yerevan, otherwise my school life would probably be miserable. When I lived in Moscow afterwards, I was just going to the local school with the Russian kids. This is not to say Russians are as a rule extremely welcoming to immigrants, but in my case I had a much better time there.

As far as the good old days, of which I don't remember much - I'm guessing Russians always had a bit of a superiority complex, being a "metropoly" within the USSR, but generally things were kept more in check than now, given the state's declared internationalist policy. Both my parents are half-and-half, which was very common in Armenia - so it must have been not so bad on an everyday level.

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#76

Post by vlokshin »

Wow. Hits very close to home.

I was born in St. Petersburg, and my family immigrated to the US when I was 6 years old. My parents are kind, quiet people who weren't risk takers -- the idea that they left everything behind was always bizarre to me.

My dad graduated #2 in St. Petersburg for Math/Science (he still has the silver medal for this) but did not get in to the top engineering school. They never gave him a real reason, but he had a Jewish last name.

He doesn't seem angry about it, nor does he really bring it up much -- but I can't help but to imagine the risk taker / creator that could've been if he wasn't stomped all over in the soviet days for being Jewish.

It's disgusting what decision makers during the soviet regime were able to get away with.

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#77

Post by davidroberts »

liber8 wrote: post #56
davidroberts wrote: post #21

I think the US unofficial quotas against Asians are somewhat similar to the Soviet ones against Jews, though not so spitefully motivated. Essentially, it boils down to "We don't want our own kids to have to compete on even terms with these hard-working, incredibly studious outsiders."

Can you explain about these "unofficial quotas against Asians"? I'm genuinely curious if this actually exists. Note that less than 5% of Americans are Asian, but: 40% of UC students are asian (and it's higher at Cal, UCLA and UCSD (i.e. the better schools)).[1] 23% of Stanford students are asian (probably higher since that excludes "international" and "decline to state").[2] 26% of MIT students are.[3] In other words…

Of course it's open to debate, but I'm convinced there are unofficial quotas, though naturally no university will admit it. An interesting quote from a NY Times op-ed: "The Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade wrote in his 2009 book, No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life, that 'to receive equal consideration by elite colleges, Asian Americans must outperform Whites by 140 points, Hispanics by 280 points, Blacks by 450 points in SAT (Total 1600).'

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-...

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#78

Post by sentadrawing »

free652 wrote: post #52
geoka9 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's huge. It permeates all levels of the society. There are jokes, stereotypes and anecdotes that are essentially part of the culture. Most (if not all) of the people have at some point been subjected to them, and even if they are not antisemitic, they are certainly aware of the singling out of Jews. This dates back to the days of the USSR, but the prejudice is not limited to Jews anymore. Chechens, Georgians, Tajik…

Russians simply do not trust anyone and discriminate other ethnic Russians over anything. Better dressed - hate you Better car - hate you Not from Moscow, you're a village idiot.

Note that with dissolution of the Soviet Union at least some republics - parts of Russia (e.g., Tatarstan, Bashkortostan) started to see discrimination against ethnical Russians. This increased movement of Russians closer to Moscow - or, say, to south-western parts of Russia, like Krasnodar region, with Russian majority.

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#79

Post by yakiv »

gimeq wrote: post #63
liber8 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain about these "unofficial quotas against Asians"? I'm genuinely curious if this actually exists. Note that less than 5% of Americans are Asian, but: 40% of UC students are asian (and it's higher at Cal, UCLA and UCSD (i.e. the better schools)).[1] 23% of Stanford students are asian (probably higher since that excludes "international" and "decline to state").[2] 26% of MIT students are.[3] In other words…

Under ethnicity-agnostic admissions standards, those percentages may be even higher. Note that Stanford's and MIT's percentatges are notable lower than UC's. Why?

This is just speculation.

California has this:

    > California’s Master Plan for higher education, adopted in
    > 1960, guarantees a place in college for every state
    > resident who can benefit. The historic blueprint produced
    > systems and programs that have served as models for other
    > states and for countries across the globe.
Stanford is a private university, and MIT isn't in California. The UCs sound like they're public universities. Perhaps the Asian students in California who are blocked out of other universities end up going to UCs instead.

This one might be incorrect, but California being on the west coast might mean that there are more Asians per person in California than in many other parts of the US, too.

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#80

Post by [deleted] »

gimeq wrote: post #63
liber8 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain about these "unofficial quotas against Asians"? I'm genuinely curious if this actually exists. Note that less than 5% of Americans are Asian, but: 40% of UC students are asian (and it's higher at Cal, UCLA and UCSD (i.e. the better schools)).[1] 23% of Stanford students are asian (probably higher since that excludes "international" and "decline to state").[2] 26% of MIT students are.[3] In other words…

Under ethnicity-agnostic admissions standards, those percentages may be even higher. Note that Stanford's and MIT's percentatges are notable lower than UC's. Why?

[deleted]
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