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Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

ivolo.me

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Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#11
post #3

Forgive me: This is both a comment on the content and in the process I mentioned something I made recently. I don't want any more users right now. I have a bucket for links called "Mythbusting" on this service I made named Scrooty. I called the bucket "Mythbusting" not as a reference to the TV show but rather for a particular category of content. I often run into misconceptions and tropes that bother me. One of those…

>This is a link I'm saving for the next time somebody tries to tell me how devoid of racism the Soviet Union was. We have a similar quota system in America that limits asian admissions and with talks of extending quotas to limit male admissions in STEM degrees. What's not clear is if these Jewish quotas were proportional to population or not.

It the quotas were proportional there would have been way smaller number of Soviet Jews with university diplomas.

Jews were disproportionally represented in universities in USSR even with all the quotas.

Similar quotas also existed for Russians and other non-locals in national republics - e.g. it was much harder for a Russian to be admitted to the university in Uzbek SSR compared to an Uzbek. This was a bit more nuanced than just Anti-Semitism.

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#12
"It was understood that since Jews represented a minority percentage of the overall population, the university would only accept that percentage into the student body. This was in line with the Soviet Union’s unofficial policy of anti-semitism in the post-Stalin era."

So, quotas... are there quotas, official or unofficial, in the USA university system?

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#13
Posted last time[1] one of these stories came around, comment applicable here:

As a preamble there most definitely existed anti-semitism in Soviet Union. I am a Russian living in the US with Jewish family in Russia. This is a throw away account.

With that said, stories of anti-semitism told by Russian Jews in US should not be taken at face value. These folks are subject to a very strong selection bias. Most of them came to the US as refugees who were recognized by the US State Department as being discriminated against for being Jewish in USSR/Russia. Secondly they have interest in maintaining the story anti-seminitism because it validates their narrative and could potentially help their relatives immigrate to the US.

Additionally many stories of anti-semitism that I heard were something a non-jew would experience as well but attributed to anti-semitism. As a personal example, I was at first denied admission to a specialized school in very late Soviet period. They eventually let me in because my mother found out that I had the highest score on the entrance exam of any one. Their excuse was that they had to let the kids who were in the paid summer program at the school first and now the class was full. A Jewish kid's parents would have been told they already have too many Jews in the advanced program. Both cases are just the admissions persons asking for a bribe.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4752047

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#14
post #10

Forgive me: This is both a comment on the content and in the process I mentioned something I made recently. I don't want any more users right now. I have a bucket for links called "Mythbusting" on this service I made named Scrooty. I called the bucket "Mythbusting" not as a reference to the TV show but rather for a particular category of content. I often run into misconceptions and tropes that bother me. One of those…

I don't know if anyone from the Soviet era would tell you that antisemitism did not exist. I don't know why any Russian would tell you otherwise. It always did and it does now. Russians are incredibly discriminatory, especially in bigger cities. When i was around 7 i had adults come up to me and tell me that i am worthless shit because i am half Armenian and half Russian.

[deleted]

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#15

"It was understood that since Jews represented a minority percentage of the overall population, the university would only accept that percentage into the student body. This was in line with the Soviet Union’s unofficial policy of anti-semitism in the post-Stalin era." So, quotas... are there quotas, official or unofficial, in the USA university system?

US laws essentially encourage unwritten quotas. While actual numbers are prohibited [0], race is explicitly listed as a legal factor to consider in admission. (Supreme court decision; can't remember the citation.)

So you can't say "we're letting in 300 of RACE this year." But, when you have 301 of RACE, you can say, "I feel like the number of RACE we've admitted this year negatively impacts the diversity of our student body."

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#cite_ref-6

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#16
post #13

Posted last time[1] one of these stories came around, comment applicable here: As a preamble there most definitely existed anti-semitism in Soviet Union. I am a Russian living in the US with Jewish family in Russia. This is a throw away account. With that said, stories of anti-semitism told by Russian Jews in US should not be taken at face value. These folks are subject to a very strong selection bias. Most of them c…

So, how big a problem is antisemitism in Russia, in your opinion?

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#17
post #3

Forgive me: This is both a comment on the content and in the process I mentioned something I made recently. I don't want any more users right now. I have a bucket for links called "Mythbusting" on this service I made named Scrooty. I called the bucket "Mythbusting" not as a reference to the TV show but rather for a particular category of content. I often run into misconceptions and tropes that bother me. One of those…

>This is a link I'm saving for the next time somebody tries to tell me how devoid of racism the Soviet Union was. We have a similar quota system in America that limits asian admissions and with talks of extending quotas to limit male admissions in STEM degrees. What's not clear is if these Jewish quotas were proportional to population or not.

Author here. As far as I understand, the Jewish quotas were not proportional to the population.

The other significant difference is that all these policies were completely opaque, not like you can find out how much Jews the university can accept this year. Officially, no such policy existed, but everyone knew it did.

In my dad's case, he was told he failed the health exam, which was a complete lie.

There were many other cases in my family where a similar thing happened:

- Besides having a passing score, my grandmother was not accepted into a tech university, while her Russian friend with the exact same grade was.

- Another one of her friends disappeared (taken to a political prison camp), after she publicly complained that she wasn't accepted into her desired university because of religion.

- my mom wanted to be a teacher, but had been told by her neighbor (who worked as a professor) to not even try applying to the Pedagogical University of St. Petersburg, as they flat out didn't accept Jews.

- post graduation, my dad wanted to work at a high-tech Moscow university lab. Back then, you were assigned to a job after graduation based on your grades. The Moscow lab was reserved for the top of the class (and my dad was in the top 5%). However, during the assignment committee, the director repeated "David Vladimirovich" twice. This was a common Jewish name, and he made sure that everyone knew it. The committee decided that my dad was to go work in a lab in Ufa (2000 km away - http://goo.gl/maps/a342A). Far places like that were reserved for lower placing students. When my dad asked why he didn't place into the Moscow lab, they told him, "we're the ones that ask the questions here."

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#18
post #3

Forgive me: This is both a comment on the content and in the process I mentioned something I made recently. I don't want any more users right now. I have a bucket for links called "Mythbusting" on this service I made named Scrooty. I called the bucket "Mythbusting" not as a reference to the TV show but rather for a particular category of content. I often run into misconceptions and tropes that bother me. One of those…

>This is a link I'm saving for the next time somebody tries to tell me how devoid of racism the Soviet Union was. We have a similar quota system in America that limits asian admissions and with talks of extending quotas to limit male admissions in STEM degrees. What's not clear is if these Jewish quotas were proportional to population or not.

[Edit: wrote the comment hastily, had to fix a bunch of grammatical mistakes.]

[Disclaimer: Soviet Jewish immigrant to the United States. We immigrated to a heavily Asian community (Cupertino) when we moved to the United States, so I'm also acutely aware of the prejudice many brilliant Asian students face in college admissions here.]

The anti-Asian discrimination in elite private universities in US, is nothing compared to the Soviet system.

For starters, in Soviet Union, if one did not get into the one university they applied to, they would be drafted into the military. In United States if an individual does not get into Stanford, they would probably be accepted into Berkeley, UT Austin, UW, UCLA, or the like -- provided they're qualified to get into Stanford and are denied due to affirmative action. That, in a nutshell, is the huge difference.

There is, however, one major similarity between Soviet Union's anti-Jewish discrimination and the anti-Asian quotas/"affirmative action"/discrimination in the United States: they are both "plausibly deniable", vague, and ill-understood. This in opposition to the strictly set percentage-based quotas used by Ivy Leagues against Jews in the early twentieth century and in Tzarist Russian Universities at roughly the same time: an applicant knew what the quota was, so it was possible to calculate how well one would need to do to get into a specific university.

The "holistic" admissions process in American universities as well as the rigged exams, deliberately lowering of grades, etc... in Soviet universities were essentially unpredictable -- no one had a clear picture of what their chances were when applying to a specific university.

In both cases prejudice at the most elite universities (Moscow State University in Soviet Union, Stanford and the Ivy Leagues in the United States) lead to many strong students/grad-students/post-doc researchers going to what were once "lesser" colleges ("Public Ivies" in the United States, universities in non-Russian Soviet republics, e.g., Belarusian State University -- where my dad was a professor) which in turn made them more academically rigorous and reputable.

Overall, American system with all its flaws is many orders of magnitude better: I'll gladly take American system at its worst (e.g., being a Jewish student in the 1920s and 1930s) over the Soviet system as its best. There are simply far more opportunities for young people who do not fit the "mold": if you do not get into a good university in US right out of high school you can attend a community college and then transfer. Even if one doesn't have the means, time, or requisite psychological profile to graduate from a university it isn't a career death sentence: while drop-out success stories are over-stated, it's still clearly possible (even if significantly harder) to find knowledge-work (i.e., enter the "intelligentsia" class) for someone who did not graduate from or even attend a university.[1]

The downside of collectivism and equality is the attitude that "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down". America's "rugged individualism" has a cost (often times "in-your-face" inequality), but individual freedom -- broadly understood, not only in the political realm -- including the freedom to carve out your own educational and career path is what made the (difficult) decision to immigrate to the United States worth it for us. My parents abandoned a privileged lifestyle (a flat in city center, a country home, a tenured professorship, guaranteed retirement, excellent public transportation, etc...) to come to the United States as they knew it would be one of the few places where someone like myself (or even my older and already college educated brother) could have a fulfilling life and career.

[1] To any young hackers reading this: please don't take it as encouragement to drop out from or -- even worse -- not attend college in the first place. Even if there was absolutely no career benefit to attending a university, it is still worth it. Here's just one example: unless you get lucky, it will be a long time in the industry until you're considered to have enough experience to be "allowed" to build an operating system, TCP/IP stack, a compiler -- or to build something non-trivial in Haskell, Lisp or ML; yet, these are routine projects in undergrad CS classes. On the other hand, if after making a genuine effort, you discover you simply cannot learn in a structured setting such as a secondary or tertiary educational institution, do not surrender your career inspirations: plenty of choices are still available to you.

Re: Soviet College Admission — My Dad's Story (1970)

#19
post #10

Forgive me: This is both a comment on the content and in the process I mentioned something I made recently. I don't want any more users right now. I have a bucket for links called "Mythbusting" on this service I made named Scrooty. I called the bucket "Mythbusting" not as a reference to the TV show but rather for a particular category of content. I often run into misconceptions and tropes that bother me. One of those…

I don't know if anyone from the Soviet era would tell you that antisemitism did not exist. I don't know why any Russian would tell you otherwise. It always did and it does now. Russians are incredibly discriminatory, especially in bigger cities. When i was around 7 i had adults come up to me and tell me that i am worthless shit because i am half Armenian and half Russian.

Same thing happened to me, only it was in Armenia and grown-up Armenians were talking sh*t to me for being a half-Russian kid (think 1st-grade age). I wouldn't say "Russians are discriminatory", just "people from the former USSR are usually discriminatory". From my experience, in both countries, Armenia was a lot worse.
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