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Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

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Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#71

To avoid the needlessly vague allusions to schools going on in this thread: I went to Princeton University for undergrad. I'm sure Bill Gates has a more nuanced view on college ratings than this article suggests. Welcome to media. We all know why the college rankings are the way they are. Frankly, no one cares who the "most improved" olympic athlete was in London. People generally want the unambiguity of an outright…

> What is the positive feedback loop for schools that rank highly on "produces the most improved students"? Would they receive extra government funding? Attract better students? I see neither of these as likely. Try again Mr. Gates.

If nothing else, colleges that are publicly known for effectiveness will have an easier time recruiting and retaining talented employees. They would presumably also be a magnet for results-driven philanthropists, either through direct donations or being somehow accredited for scholarships.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#72
Implicitly stated in this is the idea that all sectors of society want, and feel they would benefit, from this better education of everyone.

We could posit a counter-point to that assumption. The counter-point being the posited, hypothetical idea that not all sectors of society think that "a rising tide lifts all boats". We could hypothesize that there are sectors of society who would be opposed to the working poor getting good educations.

But with such a non-mainstream contrarian hypothesis being posited, we'd have to think of a reason for this. Why would some sectors of society be opposed to this? Well, perhaps they would have a desire for a "reserve army of labor" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour ). Perhaps if they had a company, like say Microsoft, their company would pay dividends. Part of the money the company doesn't reinvest in continuing costs or re-investment, would not go to wages, but stock holders. Of course, with the small amount of stock options most Microsoft employees have relative to their wages (not to mention permatemping), in game theory it would be better for these workers, if money was to go to their wage or the dividend, for the money to go the worker. Perhaps for large MSFT shareholders like Gates, it would be better for the money to go to the dividends, and not to wages.

How can you stop the workers from demanding higher wages? Perhaps having a reserve army of labor, an inflated unemployment rate etc. would help. Perhaps a worker knowing other people as skilled or almost as skilled as him are lining up to try to get work at MSFT to get the wages he is getting, and are being rejected in interviews, keeps him being happy with his wage.

Of course this is all just wild, non-mainstream, out there conjecture. Obviously the world's richest billionaires like Bill Gates only have feelings of benevolence, and aligned interests with the rest of us. You can see how lauded he is for his charity and such in the press.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#73
post #62

The currently most cited US college ranking is done by U.S News, which is heavily favored toward small private institutions from the east coast. I always find it irritating that a world renowned research power house such as UC Berkeley can't even make it into the top 20 ranking, where as schools such as Emory and Vanderbilt are ranked higher. It ALMOST feels like an east coast old money circle-jerk. I guess with the…

The USNWR college ranking is for colleges, not graduate schools. The law, medicine, business, etc, schools have their own rankings. Berkeley does very well in those graduate school rankings (indeed, Berkeley and Stanford probably get the most top-3 USNWR placements of any school). At the undergraduate level, however, the rankings measure something different. Essentially, they measure: 1) the test scores and grades of…

I agree with you that the USNWR rankings are not senseless. The fact that Berkeley has the most graduate departments in the top 5 of any University but an undergrad ranking outside the top 20 actually tells you a lot about the undergrad experience at the university. It is a research powerhouse where a top undergrad will meet exceptional professors, but you also risk getting lost in a sea of indifference.

That said, we should also keep in mind what the USNWR rankings don't measure. Washington Monthly did a raking that had UCSD on top, and almost all large public research institutions did very well

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/feature/intro...

The clever angle they took was to ask the question "what have you done for us lately?" USNWR is good for an undergrad asking "what can you do for me?" Washington Monthly figured that since all universities receive massive amounts of government funding, tax exempt endowments, and subsidy for tuition through federal loan guarantees, we should ask what they are contributing back. They placed an emphasis on social mobility (percentage of low income students), research (placing an emphasis on science and engineering), and social service.

It does get to the heart of the matter - the things that harm Berkeley in the USNWR ratings (large numbers of undergrads and a relatively low tuition in spite of decreasing support from the state) also enable Berkeley to enroll more low income students than the entire ivy league combined. Berkeley gets dinged for all the negative aspects of enrolling so many low income students relative to Harvard, but gets no credit.

Should it? It's all a matter of perspective - the problem is that because many other major publications don't consider rankings to be useful, USNWR is an almost unanswered voice pushing a ranking system that rewards small, wealthy, private undergraduate programs with relatively few low income students, and they're broadcasting it through a bullhorn into a quiet room.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an earlier Hacker News submission about the Gates Foundation research on teacher effectiveness, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4559682 linking to an article that reported details of the methodology. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/why-kids... I looked up other research on the matter for the reply I posted in that thread. From the article submitted then, this is one way this process…

And this is my hypothesis on why home schooling otherwise normal children is so much more effective than primary school education. 1) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do treat their parents with respect. 2) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do what their parents tell them to do. 3) Home school kids stay busy and don't waste time because the parent(s) aren't going to let the time go to 'waste' 4) Home sch…

Primary school seems to be about social skills just as much as academic skills. How does homeschooling address that?

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the comment you're responding to wasn't that great, but this really isn't "objectively true." He's done a lot of good for sure, but to simply accept his contributions as "the most generous and influential" because of his fame and the money behind it, is to discredit lots of other brilliant philanthropists. For example, wasn't there just an article on HN within the past week about Norman Borlaug, whose agricult…

Norman Borlaug is probably a greater humanitarian than Bill Gates, but I'm not aware of him doing any philanthropy. Now, you probably come up with metric of philanthropy where, say, Rockefeller beat him (Percentage of then existing human wealth donated?). But most of the measures that come to mind put Bill Gates on top, so while "clearly objectively true" would be going too far, "probably objectively true" is quite r…

What's the difference between philanthropy and humanitarianism? Just donating wealth vs developing it? Is that really a significant thing to distinguish?

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is my hypothesis on why home schooling otherwise normal children is so much more effective than primary school education. 1) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do treat their parents with respect. 2) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do what their parents tell them to do. 3) Home school kids stay busy and don't waste time because the parent(s) aren't going to let the time go to 'waste' 4) Home sch…

Primary school seems to be about social skills just as much as academic skills. How does homeschooling address that?

In my experience (and granted the Bay Area has a fairly healthy home schooling community) is that there are plenty of opportunities for socializing which are not necessarily 'school'. One of the things we found for our daughters was Reikes Nature studies [1] (can't say enough good things about that program), activities at our church (that happen for all kids, home schooled or not) and get togethers with other kids who were part of the community.

Generally we found filling in for the 'good' part of school socializing wasn't a problem and missing out on the 'bad' part of school socializing was a benefit.

[1] http://riekes.org/nature-awareness/

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#77

To avoid the needlessly vague allusions to schools going on in this thread: I went to Princeton University for undergrad. I'm sure Bill Gates has a more nuanced view on college ratings than this article suggests. Welcome to media. We all know why the college rankings are the way they are. Frankly, no one cares who the "most improved" olympic athlete was in London. People generally want the unambiguity of an outright…

Wonder if that metric would cause colleges to recruit the worst possible students in order to maximize the amount of improvement.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#78
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the stench of power always smell the same? It's all so predictable.

We all want to succeed. We all also want our friends and business partners to succeed. It's just that people who have lots of money and power are better at accomplishing that than the rest of us. We all help our friends out; only the scale is different.

That explains a lot actually. Powerful and simple explanation for the world we live in. However, pretty much the opposite of the so-called "trickle-down" mechanism... more like "trickle-up".

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an earlier Hacker News submission about the Gates Foundation research on teacher effectiveness, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4559682 linking to an article that reported details of the methodology. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/why-kids... I looked up other research on the matter for the reply I posted in that thread. From the article submitted then, this is one way this process…

And this is my hypothesis on why home schooling otherwise normal children is so much more effective than primary school education. 1) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do treat their parents with respect. 2) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do what their parents tell them to do. 3) Home school kids stay busy and don't waste time because the parent(s) aren't going to let the time go to 'waste' 4) Home sch…

Nonsense!

Homeschool kids are from a selected group where their parents are extremely dedicated

Look at public school kids who also come from the group of extremely dedicated parents

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is my hypothesis on why home schooling otherwise normal children is so much more effective than primary school education. 1) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do treat their parents with respect. 2) Kids between the ages of 5 and 13 often do what their parents tell them to do. 3) Home school kids stay busy and don't waste time because the parent(s) aren't going to let the time go to 'waste' 4) Home sch…

Nonsense! Homeschool kids are from a selected group where their parents are extremely dedicated Look at public school kids who also come from the group of extremely dedicated parents

This. And consider that homeschooling in no way scales, and is not very effective for kids from troubled families (for obvious reasons).
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