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Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

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Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#71
post #12

My take on Vipassana, in a nutshell (having gone through one 10-day course): An experience gets memorized based on its emotional strength, so, for example, a strong negative experience (a trauma) will get memorized quite well. Later on, in a sort-of realed situation one gets to recall and relive such stored experience - the brain sort of "believes" it's important to remember. If the re-living is also strongly emotion…

"sarkana" should probably read "sankhara", correct?

Yes, it is read as "Sankhara". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#72

I've been to a 10 day Vipassana retreat. I appreciate people say it gave them great benefits, but it did not sit well with me, so I share my story in the interests of balance. At first, things were fine. I adjusted to the silence quickly enough, the food was simple but nutritious, and didn't mind the meditation (other than the pain in my legs and back, but my request to sit on the back wall was granted). However, mid…

>At this point, I freaked out. I was worried that I'd done damage to my brain. That freakout, and that worry (which you apparently have since discovered was unfounded, I hope :) is precisely what the meditation helps you deal with, among other things. And yes, it kind of sucks that the teachers can't speak more at liberty with you. But there's a lesson there too: in the end, the answer to any trouble you might have i…

"You were wrong." In what way was I wrong? Perhaps you don't understand that whilst the panic attack was the 'straw that broke the camels back' so to speak, it was the teachings and approach that I disagreed with most in the end, the panic attack just woke me up to paying more attention to them.

"Vipassanna is the rather upsetting path toward learning to be able to sit quietly in a room, alone." If that's all it was, I would've been happier with it. Being told you create misery, that your love (unless you follow the path) is shallow, that your ego will disappear, being told that Buddhism is 'scientific' and then being told the smallest particles in the universe are 'kalapas' of earth, air, fire, etc... wasn't exactly reassuring. I also disliked the chanting (you don't have to do it, but I personally found it off-putting to listen to).

I actually enjoyed practising anapana and vipassana (less so the third type, can't remember the name), though of course you're not meant to enjoy it. Becoming aware of the extra sensation you have of your body was pretty interesting.

If the path you've chosen works for you, great, but please open your mind to accept it might not work great for everybody. One of the saving graces of the vipassana course for me is they didn't expect you to believe what they were saying, but rather believe in your own experience. That sort of honesty I can respect.

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#73

I've been to a 10 day Vipassana retreat. I appreciate people say it gave them great benefits, but it did not sit well with me, so I share my story in the interests of balance. At first, things were fine. I adjusted to the silence quickly enough, the food was simple but nutritious, and didn't mind the meditation (other than the pain in my legs and back, but my request to sit on the back wall was granted). However, mid…

Reading others' experiences and yours is just reinforcing my notion that for any given idea there will be a school of thought that takes that idea to the absolute extreme. If the school of thought becomes famous you'll eventually wind up with a group of people boosting it simply out of some kind of sense of taste. I am not a Buddhist, but I have some trouble imagining that what the Buddha intended to create was somet…

I agree that absolutes are rarely beneficial.

However, in defence of buddhism, it seems to me Buddha didn't want acquistion of a skill or material possession, but rather for people to rise above misery and be at peace and happy. That's a fine goal in my opinion, and I wouldn't want you to feel discouraged from learning more if it interests you, just trust in your own guide above any others.

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#74
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(following up on uberuberuber's reply) > Besides, the script worked well for a few thousand years now, there is hardly a reason to change it now. Imo, that is a big fallacy. I believe religious beliefs can no longer provide sound ground for adjustment in today's world. It is harmful to have within your semantic environment both "spiritual" factors such as the notion of "aetheric body", and scientific factors such as…

> It is harmful to have within your semantic environment both "spiritual" factors… and scientific factors such as the notion of "space-time" (which currently shape our civilisation). This is because the two belong to inconsistent sets, so they conflict. Harmful to what? Prove it—and not from first principles, because the human mind seems to have no trouble at all with combining arbitrary and contradictory concepts in…

> The only tangible harm is that it annoys people who attempt to apply logical reasoning to every situation and interaction, even where other human faculties are obviously more appropriate.

You are applying logical reasoning at any given time. What varies only are the assumptions you're concsciously or unconsciously making about yourself and the world.

As time passed by, humanity made various conscious and unconscious assumptions about the structure of the world. These assumptions got captured into language, which enabled passing the assumptions from one generation to the next. This is what happened with words like "soul" and "mind" (which assume possibility of absolute separation between elements). But as scientific revolutions occurred, assumptions were revised, and we created new terms, like "network" (a very important term from the semantic pov, as it assumes connectedness). Unlike thousands of years ago, today (year 2013), we know that the impossibility of absolute separation between elements is a fact of the world in which we live. By subscribing to the older systems of thought, you are going against scientifically (i.e publicly) accepted facts in your thought and actions.

>human mind seems to have no trouble at all with combining arbitrary and contradictory concepts into one big mushy whole.

The "mind"? Yes, maybe. The nervous system? Not so sure.

We know from neurology101 that observations are given by impulses received from the senses and processed in the thalamus. The cortex enables more abstract processing of observations (i.e interpretation, ideas, theories, etc.); the impulses reach the cortex after they have been processed by the thalamus. The entire thing is cyclical [1]. As the brain is one connected whole, it is neurologically important that the cortical and thalamic processes remain coordinated. This means it is undesirable that ideas are in a mushy relationship within themselves and with the empirical observations. If they were, this would essentially disconnect the activity of the brain. A very handy example of this is (my Western understanding of) mantras: they are not words, yet they are treated as if they have meaning (i.e, if I start repeating a mantra, I will deal will purely cortical products, instead of starting from observations and facts – that is, starting with thalamic products, and afterwards proceed by processing those cortically).

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq7d4ROvZ6I

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#75
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(following up on uberuberuber's reply) > Besides, the script worked well for a few thousand years now, there is hardly a reason to change it now. Imo, that is a big fallacy. I believe religious beliefs can no longer provide sound ground for adjustment in today's world. It is harmful to have within your semantic environment both "spiritual" factors such as the notion of "aetheric body", and scientific factors such as…

> Imo, that is a big fallacy. I believe religious beliefs can no longer provide sound ground for adjustment in today's world. The Buddha himself rejected to answer metaphysical questions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_unanswerable_questions Buddhism puts the emphasis on direct experience of impermanence and how it leads to suffering. Apart from that, most people have not trouble believing in contrasting theor…

> Apart from that, most people have not trouble believing in contrasting theories or living by contrasting morals ;).

Please see my reply to fusiongyro, which is currently below yours.

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#76

DISCLAIMER: This post focuses more on the Goenka courses than Vipassana meditation per se. I'm quite surprised that no dissenting opinion has yet surfaced on the topic of Goenka's courses. Most of the commentor's opinions here seem over-enthusiastic, describing the Goenka retreat as 'the best thing in [their] lives'. To me, this is a serious warning sign. I have attended a 10-day retreat, which ended prematurely (on…

Having completed a full course, I agree with you regarding the video content. It went beyond practice guidance and veered into disappointing endorsements of woo-woo.

The nightly videos start out objective and practice-focused, but by the middle of the course Goenka suggests quantum-scariness explanations for the sensations meditators are feeling.

As one retreat participant noted, in one of the nightly video talks [0]:

> [Goenka] mixes quantum mechanics with "psychology of enlightenment"

What makes it a bit more of a breach of trust is that by the time he breaks out the full-on woo-woo, you're deep in the process—the days are flying by—you purposely don't have your critical thought facilities active.

Aside from that sour note, I'd still suggest this course to others. Hitting a stride with practice and tuning your ability to focus your attention on minute sensations is a fascinating experience, especially if you've taken any courses on proprioception, sensation and perception.

If you're a rationalist who already firmly rejects the ideas of mind-body separation and reincarnation then you have nothing to worry about.

[0]: http://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php?topic=1871.0

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#77
post #12

My take on Vipassana, in a nutshell (having gone through one 10-day course): An experience gets memorized based on its emotional strength, so, for example, a strong negative experience (a trauma) will get memorized quite well. Later on, in a sort-of realed situation one gets to recall and relive such stored experience - the brain sort of "believes" it's important to remember. If the re-living is also strongly emotion…

12 year meditator here. You describe well the process of cleansing/polishing the memory. > I found it impossibly hard to keep meditating on my own Couple things to keep in mind: 1. Daily practice in some form is the real key. Just get up and do it. 2. There will be ups and downs, high and lows in meditation. 3. Vipassana is a pretty austere form of meditation. You are directly confronting the mind with little outside…

And another 12-year meditator here — my first course was in 2001, in Massachusetts.

My practice has definitely had its ups and downs over the years. In my experience the most significant contributor to a strong, consistent practice is to regularly sit with other people. Like weekly, or a few times per week if possible.

Glad to see some talk of meditation here on HN — I've always felt that programmer-types would dig Vipassana. Buddha was a hacker.

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12 year meditator here. You describe well the process of cleansing/polishing the memory. > I found it impossibly hard to keep meditating on my own Couple things to keep in mind: 1. Daily practice in some form is the real key. Just get up and do it. 2. There will be ups and downs, high and lows in meditation. 3. Vipassana is a pretty austere form of meditation. You are directly confronting the mind with little outside…

I couldn't find an email to shoot you a message, so I'm responding here. I meditated for a few months back in 2006 and it was fantastic. I, too, have trouble maintaining it. What other sorts of practices would you recommend?

Vipassana is a great practice — in my experience, finding other people to sit with consistently has helped better than anything else. Like weekly or even a few times per week.

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At this point, I freaked out. I was worried that I'd done damage to my brain. That freakout, and that worry (which you apparently have since discovered was unfounded, I hope :) is precisely what the meditation helps you deal with, among other things. And yes, it kind of sucks that the teachers can't speak more at liberty with you. But there's a lesson there too: in the end, the answer to any trouble you might have i…

"You were wrong." In what way was I wrong? Perhaps you don't understand that whilst the panic attack was the 'straw that broke the camels back' so to speak, it was the teachings and approach that I disagreed with most in the end, the panic attack just woke me up to paying more attention to them. "Vipassanna is the rather upsetting path toward learning to be able to sit quietly in a room, alone." If that's all it was,…

> One of the saving graces of the vipassana course for me is they didn't expect you to believe what they were saying, but rather believe in your own experience. That sort of honesty I can respect.

Yes! I really dug this about the Vipassana teachings. They also emphasize that you can "leave out" (per the "black stone in the oatmeal" analogy) any of the intellectual aspects that don't sit well with you.

I suspect that for most of us, just sticking with a regular practice of breathing (anapana) and sensation observation (vipassana) is enough to keep us busy for the rest of our lives, without adding on intellectual components like kalapas, what happens after we die, etc.

Re: Vipassana: 10 days of solitude and insights gained from it

#80

DISCLAIMER: This post focuses more on the Goenka courses than Vipassana meditation per se. I'm quite surprised that no dissenting opinion has yet surfaced on the topic of Goenka's courses. Most of the commentor's opinions here seem over-enthusiastic, describing the Goenka retreat as 'the best thing in [their] lives'. To me, this is a serious warning sign. I have attended a 10-day retreat, which ended prematurely (on…

Having completed a full course, I agree with you regarding the video content. It went beyond practice guidance and veered into disappointing endorsements of woo-woo. The nightly videos start out objective and practice-focused, but by the middle of the course Goenka suggests quantum-scariness explanations for the sensations meditators are feeling. As one retreat participant noted, in one of the nightly video talks [0]…

I've been to a number of 10-day Goenka courses, and agree that in the videos he occasionally drifts off to questionably relevant territory.

However, the evening talks also point out that we should mentally "leave aside" any of the intellectual stuff we don't agree with, and instead focus on what our own experience with the technique reveals.

The technique itself — actually sitting still and observing breath and sensations — is the important part, not the stuff about bubble chambers, etc.

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