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EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

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Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#71

Why is the EFF arguing for less freedom on how computers can be used? The EFF should be against the government restricting computing freedom.

Privacy is a facet of freedom.

It gives the ability to speak and communicate without fear of being censored or surveillance (edit to add: and when there is censorship & surveillance it gives helps regain some of said freedom). It supports other freedoms like voting and freedom of association. It reduces the ability of others to harass or threaten or stalk you, making your daily life easier. It allows for whistleblowing against illegal acts of companies or government entities. Journalists and their sources often need it as part of their ability to freely do their jobs.

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#72
post #50
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the terminology here can confuse the issue a bit. And because its such a socially pernicious and stigmatized topic, it's hard to even talk about the phrasing without without raising doubts as to why you would get caught up in the weeds on such an issue. But, I would say there is use in making the distinction between something that is CSAM, where its a record of abuse that has happened to a real child, and sex…

A problem you'd probably run into here is that it would be rather difficult to prove that no real CSAM was involved in the process of making the somehow-okay fake CSAM. Image generation models require training sets, after all. Do the companies training these models have the necessary data and evidence to prove every individual in every training image was over 18? Is generating fake CSAM okay if you trained the model…

Frankly, I don't think anyone cares that these images are generated using CSAM or non-consensual imagery. If I generate a perfectly ordinary picture of a person and the model somehow used CSAM or non-consensual imagery to do it, no one would care. Conversely, if we could prove a model generated gross ass images using nothing gross ass, everyone currently objecting would still object. So, let's just say what we mean here: we have a moral problem with people generating, storing, and sharing these images.

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#73
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never denied the real existence of CSAM, I'm just saying that there are people who use "CSAM" to specifically mean anime and anime related photos and avoids discussion of actually detecting or preventing sexual abuses. I think I've seen it blatantly said on organizational blog posts somewhere that trying to move focus to kids is disingenuous or something.

Just so were clear here the CSAM acronym stands for Child Sexual Abuse Material. Some Anime gets caught up because there is a lot of dubious visual depictions of that.

Which is a moral affront, not an offense against a person. The whole reason CSAM is abhorrent is its evidence of abuse. A cartoon is evidence of nothing. We should treat them differently.

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#74

Why is the EFF arguing for less freedom on how computers can be used? The EFF should be against the government restricting computing freedom.

Privacy is a requirement for freedom. You would act differently if everyone/the government knew everything you were thinking/saying/doing. The watchers would also act differently (think about all the accusations of incompetence when people post violent things on Facebook and then go on shooting sprees).

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#75

Why is the EFF arguing for less freedom on how computers can be used? The EFF should be against the government restricting computing freedom.

The EFF does not blindly take the stance that "anything should be allowed as long as you do it with a computer". Their input here is very reasonable, and in standing with their principles.

The novel thing for EFF here, as I see it, isn't the idea that some uses of computers are illegal. Rather, it's the suggestion that tech companies have a duty to police or restrict users' use of their technology.

When I worked at EFF we argued in about 20 different contexts that tech companies are not responsible for user activity even if they know that some of it is unlawful in some way, and that tech companies do not have a duty to restrict users in order to deter some kind of unlawful behavior.

We said that about copyright infringement (again and again and again, including before the Supreme Court in MGM v. Grokster), about counterfeiting, about housing discrimination, about distribution of existing child porn, about manufacture of weapons, about evading law enforcement surveillance, and about every kind of tort in content moderation (the intermediaries do not have a duty to prevent people from publishing content that civilly harms others). Oh, also money laundering with cryptocurrency mixer code. And prostitution.

In every case EFF's position was that there might be unlawful ways to use technology but the technology developer or operator didn't have a duty to prevent or discourage it, or to design the technology to prevent or discourage it, or to help the government or private parties catch people doing something unlawful.

I know there are several different legal doctrines in play there and some of them may have limitations in terms of actual knowledge (although EFF usually also argued for defining this narrowly!), so maybe one could argue that if Grok obtains actual knowledge of some improper use that it might have a duty to prevent that use in that case. But it would have been historically exceptional for EFF to say that there was a general duty to design technology to deter or detect any form of unlawful use.

There may also be a distinction in several of the relevant legal doctrines between inventing a technology (or making it available to others to use themselves on their own devices) versus hosting it on a cloud service, where the operator has more knowledge and more control than in other settings. EFF still historically preferred in basically every case to try to minimize the technology creator's or operator's liability for what users did.

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#76
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so were clear here the CSAM acronym stands for Child Sexual Abuse Material. Some Anime gets caught up because there is a lot of dubious visual depictions of that.

Which is a moral affront, not an offense against a person. The whole reason CSAM is abhorrent is its evidence of abuse. A cartoon is evidence of nothing. We should treat them differently.

[deleted]

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever you think about X's image generation models, I don't see how it is related to the petition that the EFF is opposing. Is generation of non-consensual imagery really a privacy issue? If someone publishes a real naked photo of you, that was acquired without your consent, that would be a privacy issue. If someone generates a naked photo of you, even if it looks identical to a real photo, it's not your private da…

In an ideal world, generated non-consensual imagery should be illegal through invasion of privacy through misappropriation of name or likeness, but I think only a limited number of states have those laws.

Should it apply also to drawings? Detailed descriptions? Strong mental visualisations?

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so were clear here the CSAM acronym stands for Child Sexual Abuse Material. Some Anime gets caught up because there is a lot of dubious visual depictions of that.

Which is a moral affront, not an offense against a person. The whole reason CSAM is abhorrent is its evidence of abuse. A cartoon is evidence of nothing. We should treat them differently.

> The whole reason CSAM is abhorrent is its evidence of abuse

This would make cartel execution videos more abhorrent?

Why would watching or possession of evidence of abuse against a person be an offense against a person? Other than potential second-order effects that may or may not occur like increase in demand for abuse?

I think it's perceived as abhorrent mostly because it's an evidence of the person watching being sexually interested in kids.

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#79
post #70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone generates a naked photo of you, even if it looks identical to a real photo, it's not your private data. "You see, your honor, it's not a picture of them, it's a picture of their reflection in the mirror." I feel like this discussion is a question of what the exact structure of the hydrogen-filled blimp should look like, and not a discussion of the fact that THE BLIMP IS FILLED WITH HYDROGEN. Like we got…

> Like we got so deep into the lawyered-definition of words, Perhaps try reading "your private data" again - slowly.

What do you think my comment was responding to? Literally those are the words that I was responding to.

Saying that the provenance of a naked image of myself is relevant to the fact that it's a naked image of _me_ and I don't have ownership over my own image is exactly the kind of lawyer-brained wording I was referring to when I made the comment about the mirror. "It's not a picture of you, it's a picture of a reflection of you."

Re: EFF letter to FTC on X consent order [pdf]

#80

Why is the EFF arguing for less freedom on how computers can be used? The EFF should be against the government restricting computing freedom.

The EFF does not blindly take the stance that "anything should be allowed as long as you do it with a computer". Their input here is very reasonable, and in standing with their principles.

When they oppose AB1043 (California parental controls act) it seems like they are taking that stance, that the government must not regulate computers because they are computers. What's different about the Grok situation?
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