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EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

reuters.com

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Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#71

Post by sajithdilshan »

Stromgren wrote: post #66
sajithdilshan wrote: post #31

This is a wake up call for EU, but it’s already too late IMO. ChatGPT was launched in 2022 and since then only company in EU which has released a model that is even closer to a frontiers is Mistral. With strong data protection, copyright and privacy laws, it would be a nightmare for any company to train models because activists lawyers would sue left and right. Even by some miracle they come up with the model, again…

Why _too_ late? Late, yes, but you’re implying that some line was crossed.

Yes, the time to take action has been 10 years ago. In order to catch up with US and China, EU would have to accelerate assuming US and China would stagnate(which is not the case). At current rate EU would always be catching up. I would love to hear if you can think of any plan on how EU can overtake US and China on AI advancement

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#72

Post by joe_mamba »

geysersam wrote: post #34
joe_mamba wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EU will be wise to make that happen on their terms, but they do not seem to be ready. It's too late for this. The time to execute this was 20 years ago when EU had leverage (the EU stock market was bigger than the US one in 2004, now it's half). Now that leverage is gone and EU is bogged down with massive domestic issues it can't recover from (some of which you mentioned), and starting a massive tech IP/trade war no…

To be fair the value of the stock market is not a good indicator of progress. The US stock market is incredibly inflated. Besides, it's a bit strange to argue that it's impossible to make a change, and as proof of that take the fact that there's been a big change over the last 20 years.

>To be fair the value of the stock market is not a good indicator of progress.

Where did I talk about it being "progres"? I said the value of the stock market represents economic leverage which the EU lost and is now at the mercy of foreign bullies with stronger economies(US and CHina). If you want your trading partners to respect you and your values and not back-stab you the moment you turn around, you need leverage over them(economic and/or military), otherwise everyone will walk all over you and take advantage of you and your citizens will lose prosperity proportional to your nation's loss of share in the global economy.

>The US stock market is incredibly inflated.

Doesn't matter in this particular point. If the US stock market pops, the EU's economy will suffer just as much or even more, just like post 2008.

The point was that EU is far too economically dependent to US and other major nations they hate but has no muscle and no leverage to do anything against them except post stern words on X while quietly folding like a deckchair to their demands.

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#73

Post by joe_mamba »

toxik wrote: post #29
this_user wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would imply that the EU has the ability to build its own, competitive AI ecosystem. At the moment, it's mostly just Mistral, and they have been way behind SOTA for a while now. You can't just legislate this into existence, you also need the money and talent to do it, not to mention the hardware.

You _can_ legislate it _out_ of existence though. The competence is there, no doubt. Just not the complete disregard for copyright law that is step 1 of training an LLM. Rules for thee but not for me, classic colonialism. The EU is so intertwined with the US that even Trump isn't enough to force a clean break.

>Just not the complete disregard for copyright law that is step 1 of training an LLM.

I guess you forgot that EU's unicorn champion, Spotify, started by distributing pirated music they stole off the torrents before getting the rights to that music.

Which invalidates everything you just said.

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#74

Post by joe_mamba »

alecco wrote: post #59
sajithdilshan wrote: post #31

This is a wake up call for EU, but it’s already too late IMO. ChatGPT was launched in 2022 and since then only company in EU which has released a model that is even closer to a frontiers is Mistral. With strong data protection, copyright and privacy laws, it would be a nightmare for any company to train models because activists lawyers would sue left and right. Even by some miracle they come up with the model, again…

You forgot no energy and deep resentment for anybody earning more than 85k/y (except politicians). Worst part is Europe was near the top of nuclear and microchips ~30 years ago, and France had bleeding-edge AI.

>Worst part is Europe was near the top of nuclear and microchips ~30 years ago

Boomers decided that was enough growth, it's time to cement what they got and cash out without thinking about economic growth opportunities of future generations.

>France had bleeding-edge AI

They still do, but it's all tied in stuffy bureaucratic French-speaking academia, not in monetizable products that scale internationally. Whatever they come up with, the US companies will then buy up, turn into products and sell for money.

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#75

Post by toxik »

joe_mamba wrote: post #73
toxik wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You _can_ legislate it _out_ of existence though. The competence is there, no doubt. Just not the complete disregard for copyright law that is step 1 of training an LLM. Rules for thee but not for me, classic colonialism. The EU is so intertwined with the US that even Trump isn't enough to force a clean break.

>Just not the complete disregard for copyright law that is step 1 of training an LLM. I guess you forgot that EU's unicorn champion, Spotify, started by distributing pirated music they stole off the torrents before getting the rights to that music. Which invalidates everything you just said.

I think that proves the point more than anything. Spotify was allowed to live on because the music industry bought in.

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#76

Post by joe_mamba »

toxik wrote: post #75
joe_mamba wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just not the complete disregard for copyright law that is step 1 of training an LLM. I guess you forgot that EU's unicorn champion, Spotify, started by distributing pirated music they stole off the torrents before getting the rights to that music. Which invalidates everything you just said.

I think that proves the point more than anything. Spotify was allowed to live on because the music industry bought in.

Except they could have killed spotify legally if they wanted to. Their luck was that Stockholm was the capital of the music recording industry so they had easy lines to negotiate with record label execs face to face to not get buried by the Swedish, EU and US laws they broke and would have sent them to jail.

Same thing will happen with the LLMs. Publishing companies will cut a deal with the LLM companies to get a cut off the books and IP they used for the training data.

So this is a very poor cope/excuse of why the EU doesn't have cutting edge models, because it's illegal to steal IP in Europe vs US.

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#77

Post by frabcus »

includenotfound wrote: post #55
rippeltippel wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully, EU-based Yann LeCunn's AMI Labs will develop foundational world models at some point. As I see it, the main problem in EU is not lack of talent: it's lack of investments. Mistral itself recently secured 4B, which is 50 times less than what it could have made in the US.

Investing in the EU is like burning cash. Excessive regulation, high costs and taxes (especially of human labor), and investors get punished for creating and growing companies. Even if you overcome all of this and become successful, you'll get chased by politicians for having too much money (which is not allowed in the EU). And even if you don't, today, it will be tomorrow. Easier to just take a long haul flight to y…

However true that is, it now has only to compete with the US, where any model could be shut down by the Government on a whim with no clear rules at any time.

It's happened once, could happen any time.

Not good for business!

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#78

Post by geysersam »

joe_mamba wrote: post #72
geysersam wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the value of the stock market is not a good indicator of progress. The US stock market is incredibly inflated. Besides, it's a bit strange to argue that it's impossible to make a change, and as proof of that take the fact that there's been a big change over the last 20 years.

>To be fair the value of the stock market is not a good indicator of progress. Where did I talk about it being "progres"? I said the value of the stock market represents economic leverage which the EU lost and is now at the mercy of foreign bullies with stronger economies(US and CHina). If you want your trading partners to respect you and your values and not back-stab you the moment you turn around, you need leverage…

Call it progress, call it "economic leverage", a very inflated stock market is no good measure for either.

It's true the US economy has grown faster than the European in the last two decades, for sure, I agree with you. It's just that the apparent magnitude of the difference depends on what metric you choose, and I just mean that the value of the stock market seems like a poor metric.

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#79

Post by dgellow »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #31

This is a wake up call for EU, but it’s already too late IMO. ChatGPT was launched in 2022 and since then only company in EU which has released a model that is even closer to a frontiers is Mistral. With strong data protection, copyright and privacy laws, it would be a nightmare for any company to train models because activists lawyers would sue left and right. Even by some miracle they come up with the model, again…

Regarding AWS, we have Gcore, OVH, Hetzner

Re: EU Commission looking at practical consequences of Anthropic decision

#80

Post by dgellow »

includenotfound wrote: post #55
rippeltippel wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully, EU-based Yann LeCunn's AMI Labs will develop foundational world models at some point. As I see it, the main problem in EU is not lack of talent: it's lack of investments. Mistral itself recently secured 4B, which is 50 times less than what it could have made in the US.

Investing in the EU is like burning cash. Excessive regulation, high costs and taxes (especially of human labor), and investors get punished for creating and growing companies. Even if you overcome all of this and become successful, you'll get chased by politicians for having too much money (which is not allowed in the EU). And even if you don't, today, it will be tomorrow. Easier to just take a long haul flight to y…

We have billionaires too in the EU, they obviously aren’t chased by politicians… wtf are you talking about
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