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GTA 6 Developers Unionize

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Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#71

Post by amazingamazing »

afavour wrote: post #66
amazingamazing wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?

Correlation != causation. There are a ton of differences between the US car industry and those in other countries, unionization is just one factor. As a counter anecdote I’d point to Boeing’s non-union facilities, which have produced notably less reliable airplanes than their union locations ever did.

Aren’t most boeing made by unionized workers? If by both that seems like a good comparison to make

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#72

Post by Negitivefrags »

agentgt wrote: post #29
ryandrake wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it as simple as supply/demand? People love games and game-loving developers are willing to take lower compensation to be in the industry? As a former obsessed gamer, I remember in my 20s I almost would have been willing to work at iD Software without pay if they let me.

I think it is mostly just margins. Sure there are lots of people willing to work for no very little money for game dev but I would say there are tons of people willing to work for very little money for FAANG companies because they want that on their resume. In fact since we are on hackernews that is kind of thing people wanting to be entrepreneurs do. Work at recognizable big tech company for a few years. Leave to be…

People haven’t responded to your very first point, and I want to really stress it because I don’t think most people really get it.

Margins.

Game development doesn’t pay more because game development companies can’t afford to pay more.

Sure, an individual game dev company may make a lot due to the hit driven nature of the field, but the totality of the market simply makes less money per developer than big tech does.

In order for that to change, the market has to increase in size by appealing to a more casual audience, or existing gamers have to pay more. Not something I think most gamers would like. And these are the people who the workforce of game developers form from.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#73

Post by simonjgreen »

amazingamazing wrote: post #54
HugoTea wrote: post #5

This is great news, unions not only improve working conditions, but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. It's a good sign for the future product quality of any company to see workers unionise.

Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?

The unionised Openreach in UK who are really the de facto layer 1 network provider telco build infrastructure to a staggeringly higher quality than most of the move fast startup alternatives.

Aviation unions force very high standards and represent a lot of the developments in safety and procedures.

Nuclear power is heavily unionised, resulting in a very stable and highly qualified workforce.

Unions in film and tv have done great work defending artists rights and protecting actors, writers, crew, and others from predatory behaviour by studios.

Fire fighter unions stand against unsafe demands and protect the crews in ways the individuals can’t, resulting in meaningful change. (I’m aware of UK but projecting and assuming this applies internationally)

I could go on…

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#74

Post by doublerabbit »

HugoTea wrote: post #11
WarmWash wrote: post #4

Can anyone comment on why "big video game" dev pay has lagged "big tech" pay so badly? Ostensibly they are doing remarkably similar engineering problem solving, so why is there such a disparity?

I think a never-ending pool of young, fresh, and naïve graduates happy to sell their soul to make video games has been a strong contributor for low wages for a while. Any time someone gets too senior, just replace them with another graduate. Naturally, the product quality and timescale suffers too.

Yep, 0-day contracts. Don't like it? Move on and we'll hire another set of university grads.

That's how most studios work.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#75

Post by petterroea »

ryandrake wrote: post #10
WarmWash wrote: post #4

Can anyone comment on why "big video game" dev pay has lagged "big tech" pay so badly? Ostensibly they are doing remarkably similar engineering problem solving, so why is there such a disparity?

Is it as simple as supply/demand? People love games and game-loving developers are willing to take lower compensation to be in the industry? As a former obsessed gamer, I remember in my 20s I almost would have been willing to work at iD Software without pay if they let me.

I think this is part of it. I have heard some people turn to prostitution to afford working for the mickey mouse company in Tokyo. Second hand accounts. People go to insane lengths just to work at their dream place.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#76

Post by flohofwoe »

pawelduda wrote: post #53
LPisGood wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s only true in some instances. Do most AAA titles like Call of Duty, GTA, etc use Unity or Unreal?

There are many studios with their own engines that rival or exceed UE5 - which seems overhyped, because at this point they caught up with graphics fidelity without terrible performance that dread a lot of UE5 titles. Recent notable example is Crimson Desert, they spent years building their own engine for this game and IMO they raised the bar when it comes to creating a huge realistic world. Others that come to my min…

The main point of using a 3rd-party engine like Unity or UE is not to buy technical excellence, but to get a 'good enough' asset pipeline, authoring tools and engine runtime cheaper than building and nurturing your own inhouse engine and tools team ... especially when the best programmers on those teams are then poached by Epic or Unity anyway ;)

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#77

Post by zarzavat »

parineum wrote: post #70
HugoTea wrote: post #5

This is great news, unions not only improve working conditions, but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. It's a good sign for the future product quality of any company to see workers unionise.

> but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. We'll see. It's not like police unions are making life better for citizens. Unions are there for one reason, the union members. This will most likely be good for the employees and good on them for acting in their best interest but it seems just as likely that a unionized rockstar is negative for the consumer in either inc…

I would happily pay extra money for GTA 6 if it goes to improving working conditions. It's only negative for the consumer if the consumer views life as a zero sum game.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#78

Post by AndrewKemendo »

parineum wrote: post #70
HugoTea wrote: post #5

This is great news, unions not only improve working conditions, but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. It's a good sign for the future product quality of any company to see workers unionise.

> but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. We'll see. It's not like police unions are making life better for citizens. Unions are there for one reason, the union members. This will most likely be good for the employees and good on them for acting in their best interest but it seems just as likely that a unionized rockstar is negative for the consumer in either inc…

Police unions aren’t labor unions and are illegal in many countries including Japan.

https://theconversation.com/why-police-unions-are-not-part-o...

Notably, American police (the country that invented police unions) are a modern invention that largely exist as a output of slave catching and bounty hunting services.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#79

Post by tyleo »

WarmWash wrote: post #4

Can anyone comment on why "big video game" dev pay has lagged "big tech" pay so badly? Ostensibly they are doing remarkably similar engineering problem solving, so why is there such a disparity?

I'm actually in the industry. I don't think it's as much about supply and demand as it is about expected value of the product.

Most games are expensive to make and most of them fail. Way more than normal software which doesn't have ultra-high marketing costs or diverse staffing needs (Art, QA, game design, etc).

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#80

Post by appreciatorBus »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #72
agentgt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is mostly just margins. Sure there are lots of people willing to work for no very little money for game dev but I would say there are tons of people willing to work for very little money for FAANG companies because they want that on their resume. In fact since we are on hackernews that is kind of thing people wanting to be entrepreneurs do. Work at recognizable big tech company for a few years. Leave to be…

People haven’t responded to your very first point, and I want to really stress it because I don’t think most people really get it. Margins. Game development doesn’t pay more because game development companies can’t afford to pay more. Sure, an individual game dev company may make a lot due to the hit driven nature of the field, but the totality of the market simply makes less money per developer than big tech does. I…

> In order for that to change, the market has to increase in size by appealing to a more casual audience, or existing gamers have to pay more.

The fun part of all this is that when union demands start forcing the industry in the opposite direction - higher cost, higher prices, smaller market. In a sane world, we would connect this, but in this world, we will just blame management. The union will forever have an invincible PR shield no matter how crazy the demand.

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