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How wolves became dogs

economist.com

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Re: How wolves became dogs

#71

Post by akkad33 »

conductr wrote: post #68
pokstad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a documentary on dogs that was cheerful until the last 5% when they mentioned modern day dog owners. The film speculated that dogs might be a considered like a parasite that infiltrates human families and causes them to stop breeding humans and instead only have dogs and cats. So if that’s the case, the evolution ends for us :)

I've heard this before. I think better term than parasite is an addictive drug since we created these types of pet dogs and indulge on them. I feel strongly the trend of dog ownership overtaking people having children, while real, is more so a result of modern economic realities regarding cost of housing and raising a child.

I don't know to what extent cost is stopping people from having kids. Many poor people have kids. And then they struggle to raise them.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#72

Post by akkad33 »

ddawson wrote: post #31
conductr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

Culture has been affected by Toxoplasmosis which humans are primarily exposed to through cats so this makes sense.

There's no evidence that Toxoplasmosis has that effect on humans

Re: How wolves became dogs

#73

Post by akkad33 »

dsign wrote: post #32
sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

Slightly tangential, but I think that dogs have allowed for some bad things to happen to us. Like, they are available physically, so if you don’t want to go insane in this society of ours where you are allowed to have physical contact with at most one person (your one and only partner), you can get a dog or five, or simply pet your friend’s dog or even a neighbor’s. Many post-agricultural revolution civilizations pre…

I don't really understand this comment. Are you saying dogs made way for nuclear families? Why would it be impossible? In India for example pet ownership is very low. Much lower than prevalence of nuclear families

Re: How wolves became dogs

#74

Post by akkad33 »

z3t4 wrote: post #11

It's common in fur farms that they breed the animals that are most friendly to humans, and in only a few generations those animals behave like very friendly pets, and killing them becomes more difficult.

Why do they kill animals for fur? Could they not shave them? (I realise my question sounds dumb)

Re: How wolves became dogs

#75

Post by conductr »

akkad33 wrote: post #71
conductr wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this before. I think better term than parasite is an addictive drug since we created these types of pet dogs and indulge on them. I feel strongly the trend of dog ownership overtaking people having children, while real, is more so a result of modern economic realities regarding cost of housing and raising a child.

I don't know to what extent cost is stopping people from having kids. Many poor people have kids. And then they struggle to raise them.

Poverty breeds but globally fertility rates are declining. Economics isn't the only thing driving it but parasitic puppies isn't even in the debate :)

https://www.imf.org/en/publications/fandd/issues/2025/06/the...

Re: How wolves became dogs

#76

Post by jjtheblunt »

griffzhowl wrote: post #59
jjtheblunt wrote: post #22

I watch the genetic studies and it seems always presumed, in these articles, that dogs derive from wolves, not that dogs derive from siblings of wolves that derive from a common proto-canine ancestor. The wikipedia entry considers the issue, presents data that are curious with respect ot the data in the Economist article, saying domestication is presumed from wolves roughly 14,000 years or so ago. https://en.wikipedi…

The wiki article doesn't say domestication occurred roughly 14k years ago, it says at least 14k years ago, because that's the earliest definitive evidence of a domesticated dog. Here are the next two sentences from the wiki article: "The remains of the Bonn–Oberkassel dog, buried alongside humans between 14,000 and 15,000 years ago, are the earliest to be conclusively identified as a domesticated dog.[9][7] Genetic s…

agreed. in one of the articles linked, they further summarize

"Dog ancestors diverged from modern wolf ancestors at least 27,000 years ago"

which is still compatible with the two diverged ancestries sharing a proto-canid ancestor from which proto-wolves and proto-dogs both were derived.

Interestingly, the article about Belgian prehistoric canid dna says the genetics are so varied that they don't form a clear group.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#77

Post by belviewreview »

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

I am speculating that agriculture lead to human beings evolving to do the sort of labor that it requires, especially grains.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#78

Post by IAmBroom »

MichaelRo wrote: post #18

>> “The only, absolute and best friend a man has, in this selfish world, the only one that will not betray or deny him, is his dog.” Well, this is far from absolute, isn't it? :) There's a fair number of vicious attacks of a dog on his owner. Oftentimes pitbulls (are they even dogs or rather "creatures"?!), but other breeds do it too. So ... nothing is absolute :P

The quote doesn't insist all dogs are infinitely loyal.

Your disgusting prejudice aside, I've never met a pitbull in public that wasn't sweet and loving - which reinforces my suspicion that the real problem with them is the sort of psychotic, uncaring owner they attract.

When I was young, it was Dobermans that were demonized, and likewise the dog of choice for assholes who abused them as mere security devices.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#79

Post by IAmBroom »

dsign wrote: post #32
sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

Slightly tangential, but I think that dogs have allowed for some bad things to happen to us. Like, they are available physically, so if you don’t want to go insane in this society of ours where you are allowed to have physical contact with at most one person (your one and only partner), you can get a dog or five, or simply pet your friend’s dog or even a neighbor’s. Many post-agricultural revolution civilizations pre…

> Many post-agricultural revolution civilizations predicated on small family cells and strict property and succession rules would have been impossible without a dog to pet.

That's silly. US Midwest farmers meet every detail up until "would have been impossible"; dogs are common but not ubiquitous, and farming communities are highly social.

(Cats, ironically, are ubiquitous on farms, because of their utility at hunting mice and rats.)

Ironically, you're describing the classic "cat lady" trope, only with the wrong pet type.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#80

Post by IAmBroom »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #22

I watch the genetic studies and it seems always presumed, in these articles, that dogs derive from wolves, not that dogs derive from siblings of wolves that derive from a common proto-canine ancestor. The wikipedia entry considers the issue, presents data that are curious with respect ot the data in the Economist article, saying domestication is presumed from wolves roughly 14,000 years or so ago. https://en.wikipedi…

We have fossil records of wolves that do not seem much different from modern grey wolves. We do not have fossil records of ancestors to the grey wolves that share much of their DNA coexisting with the grey wolves.

Occam's Razor says that the posited ancestor of Canus domesticus that shared grey wolf DNA was... the grey wolf.

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