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Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

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Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#71

This might be one of those cures that works like the old T-Gel shampoo (ie: carcinogenic coal tar that turned out to be immune-suppressing enough to prevent dandruff eventually caused cancer). Though, at the ages when Osteoarthritis shows up, it might be better to take on a smaller risk of monitor-able extremity cancer than the pretty large QoL reduction of severe arthritis.

The age-related risk is an excellent comment. There are illnesses that progress slowly, and the age should always be taken into account when going for a cure.

I am in my 50s and wonder from time to time what I would do if certain health-related events strike. For some, I have a well-defined solution (such as suicide for Alzheimer or ALS; or an active cure for cancers that have a fair chance of being fought). The more problematic ones are the ones fatal in long(er) term, with an aggressive and diminishing cure.

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#72

This might be one of those cures that works like the old T-Gel shampoo (ie: carcinogenic coal tar that turned out to be immune-suppressing enough to prevent dandruff eventually caused cancer). Though, at the ages when Osteoarthritis shows up, it might be better to take on a smaller risk of monitor-able extremity cancer than the pretty large QoL reduction of severe arthritis.

There is a theory (theory! very theoretical) that the risk from radiation does not scale linearly and that low doses of radiation might actually be protective. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis

There is absolutely no reason to think that radiation damage should be linear. In fact, we can objectively say that isn’t the case because we KNOW about damage correcting pathways. The linear model, used for public safety limits, is picked as a conservative method because we don’t have a better model (and collecting data to make a better model would be unethical).

The “small dose radiation is actually beneficial” part is pure conjecture, and almost certainly wrong. But unrelated to the issue of the validity of the linear model.

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#73

Exposure to radiation up-regulates genes involved in DNA repair pathways, genes associated with antioxidant defense (notably those downstream of the Nrf2 transcription factor) and autophagy-related genes (which are crucial for the degradation and recycling of cellular components). Fasting does all those things, too -- without introducing random errors into one's DNA. Basically everyone under 40 should do regular fast…

> Basically everyone under 40 should do regular fasts of some form,

I'm extremely sceptical of claims of the form "basically everyone in [broad group] should do [medical intervention]", but you sound knowledgeable. Could you share your evidence, please?

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#74
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://physicians.dukehealth.org/articles/stem-cell-therapy... Which countries is it a available/approved in?

The Cayman Islands is one I can think of and I wouldn't trust any of those American studies where most doctors usually have several conflicts of interest in this case with manufacturers of prosthetics.

One Australian company conducting research: https://www.magellanstemcells.com.au/about/

"Phase III for Clinical Efficacy Trial – beginning in 2025

Our product MAG200 has successfully completed Phase I/II of a clinical trials on the use of allogeneic (donor) off-the-shelf stem cell therapy for OA. The pivotal Phase III trial is planned to commence in 2025."

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#75

Exposure to radiation up-regulates genes involved in DNA repair pathways, genes associated with antioxidant defense (notably those downstream of the Nrf2 transcription factor) and autophagy-related genes (which are crucial for the degradation and recycling of cellular components). Fasting does all those things, too -- without introducing random errors into one's DNA. Basically everyone under 40 should do regular fast…

> Basically everyone under 40 should do regular fasts of some form, I'm extremely sceptical of claims of the form "basically everyone in [broad group] should do [medical intervention]", but you sound knowledgeable. Could you share your evidence, please?

Part of my evidence is how much better I felt when I started doing these 5-day FMD "dives". A chronic condition (chronic pain in one of my femurs) which I had consulted a doctor about without avail and which had plagued me for decades completely cleared up, making my experience of life significantly more pleasant. (The most likely cause of the chronic condition is damage to the "growth plate" in this bone through too much usage of it when I was a child.) There were other positive changes if my subjective experience of life is any indication (and according to my immunologist, it is a good indication—at least of immune-system function).

Our ancestors were required to do hours per day of physical exertion just to stay alive. Because of technological progress, it is possible for most people these days to survive with very little exertion, but we now know that living this way (doing very little exertion) is bad for a person with the result that most of us should regularly exercise to maintain our health. Similarly our ancestors were required to endure periods of "calorie deficit" (eating fewer calories than would be survivable if the deficit went on indefinitely). The body uses these periods to disassemble damaged proteins inside cells (autophagy) and to get rid of unnecessary and damaged cells (apoptosis). When a person never undergoes a calorie deficit, these processes do not happen or happen to a much lesser degree than is optimal.

IIUC the main experimental evidence for the benefits of FMD come from an earlier protocol called "calorie restriction" in which the number of calories is kept constant and is a little lower (25% or 30% IIRC) than the individual would prefer to eat or that most Westerners actually eat. This protocol was found to extend life in mice significantly. Then someone found that fasting can improve the same biomarkers that calorie restriction improves (and consequently can be expected to have the same beneficial effects on longevity). But fasting by eating zero calories for days has adverse effects (including sudden death), starting a search for a diet that has the same beneficial effects on the biomarkers without the adverse effects of zero-calorie fasting.

Valter Longo is the longevity research who devised the FMD.

I am _not_ an expert or a professional in this field.

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically everyone under 40 should do regular fasts of some form, I'm extremely sceptical of claims of the form "basically everyone in [broad group] should do [medical intervention]", but you sound knowledgeable. Could you share your evidence, please?

Part of my evidence is how much better I felt when I started doing these 5-day FMD "dives". A chronic condition (chronic pain in one of my femurs) which I had consulted a doctor about without avail and which had plagued me for decades completely cleared up, making my experience of life significantly more pleasant. (The most likely cause of the chronic condition is damage to the "growth plate" in this bone through too…

You're referencing literature obliquely, but that's not enough for me to look it up. It'd be helpful to future readers (some of whom will be 10 or 15 years in the future) if you could track down those references, cite them, and explain what information is in those references, and what is your own anecdotal evidence.

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of my evidence is how much better I felt when I started doing these 5-day FMD "dives". A chronic condition (chronic pain in one of my femurs) which I had consulted a doctor about without avail and which had plagued me for decades completely cleared up, making my experience of life significantly more pleasant. (The most likely cause of the chronic condition is damage to the "growth plate" in this bone through too…

You're referencing literature obliquely, but that's not enough for me to look it up. It'd be helpful to future readers (some of whom will be 10 or 15 years in the future) if you could track down those references, cite them, and explain what information is in those references, and what is your own anecdotal evidence.

The only anecdotal evidence is in the first para. The second para is an obvious evolutionary argument, which I came up with myself rather than my hearing it from somewhere else (but it follows the same simple pattern as many evolutionary arguments I have heard). The rest is my recollection of what I learned listening to Longo's being interviewed and maybe also what I learned from a few quick uses of a search engine.

I decline your suggestion for me to look stuff up so that I can post the results here. I might have made the effort if my previous 2 comments had been upvoted significantly (which is the main way for me to tell whether readers value them) but both are sitting at a score of 1.

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#78
post #2

For centuries, in Bulgaria, since Roman times, people have been bathing in slightly radioactive water to treat osteoarthritis. I'm not sure how this is news or an invention when it's been around for centuries and has been the standard of care in Bulgaria for decades. There are sanatoriums and spa centers in Pavel Banya, Bulgaria [0], and I know many friends who go there once or twice a year for treatments and swear t…

Just because something has been done for hundreds of years does not mean it has been scientifically shown to actually do more than placebo. A lot of people do a lot of stuff that has been proven to do nothing detectable, and they still swear by it. "It has been done for hundreds of years" isn't a good argument. There is a reason "Appeal to tradition" is one of the more famous logical fallacies. Also: The radiation do…

perhaps an experiment has verbally controlled its inputs and outputs in analyzing the effect of an independant variable upon a dependant variable. this does not imply that that those inputs and outputs were actually controlled for , nor does it imply that any found correlations are inherently causative. between folk wisdom that kinda works vs. corporate advice that also kinda works but happens to make someone a huge profit ....... ill take the thermal baths first

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#79
post #29

Tom Scott made a video about a related treatment - radon caves a couple years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZkusjDFlS0

Interesting. Now I have a question about that video, and I think I'm more likely to get a good answer from someone here than in the comments there, so here goes: Tom says that because that's the only radon cave that can turn the flow of radon on and off at will, it's the only place where you could (in theory) run a double-blind experiment on radon exposure therapy. My question is: would it not be just as possible to…

No don't think they can "turn it off"...that's why they time how long people are in so carefully.

Best as I can tell it's just something that is in that cave...seeping through the rocks etc.

Re: Low-dose radiation offers relief to people with knee osteoarthritis

#80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Now I have a question about that video, and I think I'm more likely to get a good answer from someone here than in the comments there, so here goes: Tom says that because that's the only radon cave that can turn the flow of radon on and off at will, it's the only place where you could (in theory) run a double-blind experiment on radon exposure therapy. My question is: would it not be just as possible to…

No don't think they can "turn it off"...that's why they time how long people are in so carefully. Best as I can tell it's just something that is in that cave...seeping through the rocks etc.

I was just repeating what the video you linked to said. Re-watch it from 8:13 to 9:18.
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