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The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

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Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#71

Who cares? IPv4 is a dead technology and this is like complaining that the UK has a bunch of fax machines in storage somewhere. 10 years ago, this would have been a waste. Now it doesn't even matter. Even Comcast supports IPv6.

Comcast is only one ISP. AT&T hasn't yet deployed IPv6 for their residential customers. (I think there are ipv6rd routers available, but you have to know about them and configure your own router to use them, and since it's not an official service, it could be discontinued at any time).

Then there's software. Many web apps don't support IPv6 (db fields limited to ipv4 format, or code assuming ipv4 format). For instance, Internet Brands is too busy with important business, like frivolous lawsuits, to fully support IPv6 in vBulletin. [1]

Some webapps have 3rd party hacks (or even first party hacks) to "support" ipv6 without modifying a lot of ipv4-dependent code, typically by hashing the ipv6 address, taking 32 bits, and using that as the ipv4 address. It's both disgusting and funny.

There's a long way to go before IPv4 is dead.

[1] http://tracker.vbulletin.com/browse/VBIV-9397 (you need a vbulletin.com forum login, unfortunately, and maybe also a linked license; in summary, it's a 2-year-old bug for full support of IPv6, it has no comments from vbulletin devs and no assignee.)

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#72
post #69

I'm not sure about the definition of 'unused', just because a network is not visible from the Internet and has no publicly registered ASNs doesn't mean its numbers are not in private use (which AFAIK, was always a legitimate use-case for getting an allocation, and in many ways preferable to reusing RFC1918 space). Added to that, even if it was seeing only minuscule internal use, the UK government's IT project reputat…

Under what circumstances is it the best thing for people to use otherwise routable IP addresses instead of private IP space?

Under all circumstances: I'm sure we've all been faced at some stage with the unplanned need to route between two RFC1918 subnets, only to find they collide, in situations as simple as a home VPN connection dialling into the office LAN, up to corporate mergers involving hundreds of thousands of desktops.

A central address registry along with 'public' allocations is the only way to avoid this kind of mess. The fact that public addresses are currently scarce doesn't make having unified addressing any less desirable (just presently impractical).

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#73
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition has sort of already happened. Most software stacks support IPv6 now, and many server hosting companies are giving out IPv6 addresses like candy. (I think I have a /48 or something for jrock.us. That's 2 to the 48th IPv4 Internets! I have a lot of computers, but not that many.) All that's left are the clients, and the way I see that transition happening is in the low-cost sector. Sort of like an AOL whe…

"The transition has sort of already happened," he says, over IPv4. Seriously, unless you want to be posting to HN via IPv4 in 2050, there is clearly something major left undone. Don't call it a transition if you think that concept is undone, but it's not yet functionally possible to be on the Internet with no IPv4 stack or (possibly NATted) address, and I don't see that becoming the case anytime soon. See http://cr.y…

Only because HN is IPv4-only. I'm sitting in a remote office on my laptop this morning, and it has an IPv6 address. When I visit google.com, it's over IPv6.

It's happening.

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#74
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under what circumstances is it the best thing for people to use otherwise routable IP addresses instead of private IP space?

Under all circumstances: I'm sure we've all been faced at some stage with the unplanned need to route between two RFC1918 subnets, only to find they collide, in situations as simple as a home VPN connection dialling into the office LAN, up to corporate mergers involving hundreds of thousands of desktops. A central address registry along with 'public' allocations is the only way to avoid this kind of mess. The fact th…

Sorry, I was imprecise. I meant, under what circumstances today is it the best thing to spend routable IP addresses for machines that aren't exposed directly to the Internet? I'm getting directly at the practicality of these schemes. Obviously, if routable IP addresses were easy to get, there would be lots of cases where it would make sense to use them.

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#75
post #26

There are lots of stories like this. Many of them are worse; at least you can imagine that the UK is holding these addresses in reserve. There are companies with giant allocations that are holding them so that they can give every desktop and every printer in their enterprise a routable address; others are doing the same thing, but also operating flat, unrouted networks . More evidence for the core problem: fiat alloc…

"fiat allocation doesn't work"

Sort of, and sort of not right? Fiat allocation of a fixed resource, sure, but ISO does fiat allocation of OID space and it works because folks are free to grow as much as they want below it. As I recall one of the original 'next gen' IP proposals was like a huge address translation cloud, IPs were encapsulated in yet another layer which provided 'context' for the IP address inside. Basically every entity got their own 32 bit address space and ingress/egress to the Internet resulted in encapsulation and some additional router magic. One of the arguments against was the huge additional bandwidth cost. Of course we didn't realize at the time that few protocol changes could waste as much bandwidth as SPAM does.

The other challenge is that a functioning liquid market for IP addresses would most likely lead to speculation in IP address blocks. Worse is buying an address block from someone in Germany so that packets have to go to Germany first (top level static routing) to the router where they are re-allocated and then to their 'real' destination router. All very inefficient.

I, like other folks at Sun, was a big fan of a more modest 64 bit address proposal for V6, but alas it was not to be. That the conversion has taken as long as it has (and still isn't "here" nearly enough for a lot of users) really illustrates the dangers of the argument to 'permanently' fix things[1]. But innumeracy aside, the confounding issue is that IP addresses are 'structural' like telephone numbers and managing mobility of structural identifiers is always challenging (the cellular market deals with this all the time) so creating a truly liquid marketplace for these identifiers would ideally include fixing the structural issues which would allow the constraints to be fixed and thus eliminate the market.

Bottom line, it would have been great if folks had thought of that first, but they didn't and while future protocol developers can (and should) benefit from that experience, we're stuck with V4 address blocks that are stuck in various regions of the world.

[1] The most persuasive argument against 64 bit addresses was that this would only push the problem down the road, whereas 128 bit addresses fixed things once and for all.

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#76
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under all circumstances: I'm sure we've all been faced at some stage with the unplanned need to route between two RFC1918 subnets, only to find they collide, in situations as simple as a home VPN connection dialling into the office LAN, up to corporate mergers involving hundreds of thousands of desktops. A central address registry along with 'public' allocations is the only way to avoid this kind of mess. The fact th…

Sorry, I was imprecise. I meant, under what circumstances today is it the best thing to spend routable IP addresses for machines that aren't exposed directly to the Internet? I'm getting directly at the practicality of these schemes. Obviously, if routable IP addresses were easy to get, there would be lots of cases where it would make sense to use them.

I just gave you a reason. Without coordination of private network addressing, those networks essentially speak different protocols, needing horrendous transforms like NAT which only works in specific situations and myriad crap over the application layer (like DNS views) in order to get them to talk.

If anything, today, networks are more likely to end up interconnected than they were in 1994.

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#77
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you envision the transition taking place? Given that 6 and 4 talk past each other.

The transition has sort of already happened. Most software stacks support IPv6 now, and many server hosting companies are giving out IPv6 addresses like candy. (I think I have a /48 or something for jrock.us. That's 2 to the 48th IPv4 Internets! I have a lot of computers, but not that many.) All that's left are the clients, and the way I see that transition happening is in the low-cost sector. Sort of like an AOL whe…

How did you get a /48?

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#78
post #25
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a little over 4 billion IPv4 addresses. If they cost even 10c / month the vast majority of them would still be unused. However, because they where free well over half of them are simply wasted and we are "running out".

My ISP feels it is 'reasonable' to charge $10\month for one. $10 x 4B x 12 months would solve the national debt in just a few years...

Assuming you mean the American national debt, not really. That's only $480 billion/year. That wouldn't even plug our current deficit, let alone start paying off the debt.

Re: The UK has an entire IPv4 /8 that it isn't using

#79
post #26

There are lots of stories like this. Many of them are worse; at least you can imagine that the UK is holding these addresses in reserve. There are companies with giant allocations that are holding them so that they can give every desktop and every printer in their enterprise a routable address; others are doing the same thing, but also operating flat, unrouted networks . More evidence for the core problem: fiat alloc…

"fiat allocation doesn't work" Sort of, and sort of not right? Fiat allocation of a fixed resource, sure, but ISO does fiat allocation of OID space and it works because folks are free to grow as much as they want below it. As I recall one of the original 'next gen' IP proposals was like a huge address translation cloud, IPs were encapsulated in yet another layer which provided 'context' for the IP address inside. Bas…

If we're talking about advertisable blocks, the Germany scenario doesn't happen. For the time being, there can't be a liquid market for /32's, at least not one that works acros multiple ISPs.

I agree with you strongly that the 128 bit IP address is a huge design mistake, one that has unnecessarily retarded the deployment of IPv6 (I personally believe fatally so). Even in the '90s, a 64 bit number was still a scalar on most platforms you'd care about. And even in 2012, 128 bit numbers aren't. I think people drastically underestimate the amount of work it's going to take to upgrade the huge amount of software built on the assumption that you can store an IP address in a scalar.

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