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Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

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Re: Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

#71
post #37

Start with the IP-related laws. They seem to have some of the most aggressive ones in the world, which could explain why the Pirate Party there is also the fastest growing branch.

I doubt it. Germans started getting sued for illegal downloads right when DSL grew popular (a decade ago), without any political response. We also have no software patents; we can still (CMIIW) freely share copyrighted works with friends, just not with the public; we can crack what wouldn't otherwise run. The only part that is so terrible and draconic that everybody knows about it is the GEMA, which is concerned with…

This is not completely true. You can share copyrighted materials but you are not allowed to bypass or crack any security measures to do so. Also, the information on cracking a protection system, like ripping a DVD or an LP, may not be discussed publicly. Tutorials on these topics are illegal. The same is true for software products that would allow network intrusions. Wireshark is illegal, as well.

Re: Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, right you are! Didn't notice it thanks to the anchor link. Doesn't change the commit history's melange of English and German.

All Germans I have ever met have had excellent English. Certainly good enough to read short English commits with only the occasional dictionary reference required. The Eurobarometer report from 2006 says 56% of Germans speak English. But I suspect that rather underestimates the case here. There is a huge difference between someone checking a box on a form that says they can speak English and being able to parse short…

It's been a few years since I visited Germany, but it varied quite a bit with region, level of education, and age (pretty universal among younger Gymnasiasten, very rare among older people in former East Germany, particularly more rural parts).

I have gotten reactions from "Why did you bother to learn German? Everyone here speaks English" to "Gott sei dank! Du kannst Deutsch" ("Thank god! You can speak German")

Re: Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

#74
post #66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Germany has a civil law instead of a common law system, this might be easier. (But I don't know, really.)

Not really. Common law systems still have statutes that are compiled and amended. The "common law" potion of the system just means that court rulings are (potentially) binding upon other courts.

The difference between civil and common law is an elusive thing. On the surface it is enormous, but the deeper you dig, the less you find.

Sometimes it's claimed it's about precedent, and indeed some civil law jurisdictions claim that they do not believe in binding precedent. But of course for a legal system to be at all useful, decisions need to be consistent, and the idea that you can achieve consistency by writing every detail in a code so that every decision logically follows from the code is bullshit; if that were the case, all civil lawsuits would be 100% predictable and therefore rational actors would settle them and the judges could all go on vacation.

The reasoning I once read in some Dutch first-year law course notes was along the lines of "we don't do _stare decisis_, but we support equal treatment in equal cases, and it would be unequal treatment to treat you in way X when we treated the other guy in way Y, so we're going to follow precedent, but not because we must follow precedent, but only to avoid unequal treatment." I suppose that it is true that digging up absolutely ancient judgments is a little bit less convincing in a civil law setting, especially if there are periodic recodifications so that you can simply toss away a 17th-century precedent by saying it was an interpretation of the old code, not the new one.

Some say the difference is codification, but as you point out, not all status in common law jurisdictions are just piles of unrelated acts: a lot of the time, they are organized as systematic codes that are amended just like civil law codes. And besides, civil law countries have uncodified case law, too. The section on torts in the French civil code, for instance, is incredibly terse, saying basically that if you unfairly harm somebody you must compensate them. But of course France has tort law just like England does. Interestingly, since French court decisions do not normally provide much reasoning aside from quoting sections of the codes, the details of that tort law get elaborated mostly by law professors in books and articles; but in other civil law jurisdictions, like Germany, judges write long, reasoned decisions just like in the US (except more stilted and formulaic in style). And Scotland, considered traditionally a civil law country, has lots of English-style uncodified legislation.

So maybe then it's the Roman basis? Nah. English law had lots of Roman influence, too, and continental law had lots of influence from local customary law, canon law, and the law merchant. (Just read Berman to find out the details.) Maybe the continentals were bigger on pretending that it was all Codex Iuris Civilis all the time, but nobody ever really believed that.

So then what? Sometimes you hear particular doctrines called out as being significantly different, like consideration in in common contract law as opposed to the intention to be bound in the civil law of obligations. But the consideration rule has so many exceptions that if you can reasonably be thought to have intended to be bound, you'd better know the law very precisely if you still want to get out from under things based on lack of consideration. Besides, consideration may not be required in the civil law, but a payment can serve as evidence of a nonwritten contract.

That's not to say that there are no differences, but it's hard to pin down anything that really applies in all civil law jurisdictions and no common law jurisdictions or vice versa. Notaries, I think, are a pretty consistent difference, although they don't exist in some Asian civil-law jurisdictions.

Re: Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

#75
post #48

Sorry semi-OT humour but this is one of the very few times were you can actualy fork with the law and come out ontop :). Sadly though alot of laws due to changes and word-smith pervertions can be hard to understand and in that it would be nice if there was some universal way to express law's that you could get any law in any country and express. That would be immpressive though hard to do. Only comparision would be p…

The closest thing to a universal expression of law is probably English. In older times, it would have been... Latin?

The problem with translating law is that a lot of the time words are used as "terms of art" that have a special meaning based on tradition or, worse, precedent: some court at some point was forced to decide on the meaning of some very fuzzy word, they came down one way, and now the very fuzzy word has a very precise meaning and lawyers like to use it precisely because it has a precise meaning!

That sort of stuff easily gets lost in translation, which is why legal translation is such a pain to do. And probably a good part of why it took the English courts so long to switch from Law French (an old dialect of Norman French long used for English legal writing) to English.

Re: Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is where "German citizens can easily find an up-to-date version of their laws online" : http://www.bgbl.de/Xaver/start.xav?startbk=Bundesanzeiger_BG...

It's not. You still have to have the complete text of the law and manually add the changes that are described in the Bundesanzeiger. It states for example something like "Change in BGB: Paragraph 123, section 45, change the word 'and' to 'and/or'. Only completely new texts would be printed in full. The Bundesanzeiger is merely the last step in the law making process. First, the two law making institutions (Bundestag,…

Does the government publish a version where the deltas are already applied?

Re: Germany's laws on github, machine-readable and ready to be forked

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. Germans started getting sued for illegal downloads right when DSL grew popular (a decade ago), without any political response. We also have no software patents; we can still (CMIIW) freely share copyrighted works with friends, just not with the public; we can crack what wouldn't otherwise run. The only part that is so terrible and draconic that everybody knows about it is the GEMA, which is concerned with…

This is not completely true. You can share copyrighted materials but you are not allowed to bypass or crack any security measures to do so. Also, the information on cracking a protection system, like ripping a DVD or an LP, may not be discussed publicly. Tutorials on these topics are illegal. The same is true for software products that would allow network intrusions. Wireshark is illegal, as well.

That is all true. I probably live too deep within my bubble of DRM-free media :)
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