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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#71

Post by makeitdouble »

graemep wrote: post #54
danparsonson wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument wears thin very quickly, especially when the people of the culture from which the artifact originates are not able to view it (because it now lives in London instead of their home country), and thereby learn about their own history. See for example the Benin Bronzes; imagine that the original US Constitution document were housed in a museum in Nigeria.

The Benin Bronzes if returned will go to the descendants of the original owners - the kings of a kingdom built on slavery. I certainly know many people in countries from which these things were taken who think they are safer somewhere stable - I have heard exactly the comment that returning things will probably mean then end up stolen by politicians from Sri Lankans with regard to the things the Netherlands returned…

> the kings of a kingdom built on slavery.

You cannot put that as a reason to keep the artifacts in the UK, of all places.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#72

Post by dijit »

alluro2 wrote: post #68
dijit wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or France, or Belgium, or Finland, or Netherlands.

That's quite a jump from discussing Germany taking custody of a museum collection. I don't think these countries would like being taken too.

If this is a joke I am perhaps too tired to understand it.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#73

Post by seatac76 »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

This assumes global cultural value matters more than the native cultural value of the people to whom the artifacts belong.

I think the default should be to return to the native country wherever possible. Although it does beg the question of what to do if the native countries have changed significantly due to imperialism/colonization, idk.

But I do appreciate the value of cross cultural sharing so perhaps museums could have a rotating selection that they can borrow for some time from the native country, as long as the transport does not have negative impacts on the artifacts.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#74

Post by graemep »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10
pfortuny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

> Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Whose culture and polity have no continuity with that of the people who made the mummy, but rather with that of later invaders.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#76

Post by jntun »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

Looting and pillaging is fine, as long as you build an entire economic / social system around it? Because that is the only semblance of logic I can take away from your statements. These museums didn't just pop into place for the artifacts to reside in; they were built to show off their spoils.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#77

Post by Metacelsus »

pfortuny wrote: post #5
notpushkin wrote: post #3

> While some critics of repatriation have raised concerns over how poorer countries will care for their returned artifacts, Marieke van Bommel, director general of the National Museum of World Cultures, tells the New York Times’ Lynsey Chutel that “the thief cannot tell the rightful owners what to do with their property.” But the government of the country the artifacts are being returned into isn’t the rightful owner…

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

especially when you consider the British Museum hasn't been great about preventing theft recently

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#78

Post by alluro2 »

dijit wrote: post #72
alluro2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a jump from discussing Germany taking custody of a museum collection. I don't think these countries would like being taken too.

If this is a joke I am perhaps too tired to understand it.

It was a pretty cheap and light-hearted aside shot at your comment meaning that Germany should, since we're talking about it taking the collection into custody, take those countries into custody as well. Nothing smart was missed - I wish you a good rest!

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#79

Post by noworriesnate »

tetris11 wrote: post #35
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be thankful the British stole it!

Honestly, of all the empires that could have stolen I'm glad it was the British. Cruel, destabilizing, more atrocities than any other empire, but somehow the royal class had a culture of conservation for (some) wildlife and historical artefacts.

> more atrocities than any other empire

This is an interesting example of survivor's bias. We know about the atrocities the British Empire committed because many of their victims survived. You should read about the Soviets, the Assyrians, or heck even just read the Bible. History has a lot of atrocities in it. As an empire goes the British were pretty run-of-the-mill, maybe a bit light on the genocide.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#80

Post by ipaddr »

jntun wrote: post #76
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

Looting and pillaging is fine, as long as you build an entire economic / social system around it? Because that is the only semblance of logic I can take away from your statements. These museums didn't just pop into place for the artifacts to reside in; they were built to show off their spoils.

Take the Taliban example of destroying Buddhist culture in the 90s. They are/were the current people in power would you suggest returning items to be destroyed or carefully preserving them for future. Would you return items to a place incapable of taking care of them?
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