To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It • Hacker News Board

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#71

Post by vannevar » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 9:54 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

vannevar wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is no decreased demand. In fact, in many communities there is increased demand. Education (like health care) is not amenable to overly simplified economic models, because (like health care) it's not an optional expense. The right answer might be to increase teacher salaries, bringing compensation on par with other professionals and thus attracting more qualified people, who in turn produce better-educated s…

But there is no decreased demand. Of course there is - the quantity demanded at a fixed price is set to go down by (according to the DoE) 280,000. I.e., the demand curve has shifted left.

You're making the mistake of inferring demand from the budget, which is exactly the overly simplistic economic analysis I was warning about. If inflation raises the price of all goods, does that show increasing real demand? Of course not. In this case, not only are there not fewer kids demanding education, there are actually more of them, and offering (proportionate to the tax revenue available) the same 'price' as they were before. The fact that the tax revenue contracted does not in any way indicate a lessening in real demand, any more than inflation reflects a real increase in demand.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#72

Post by praxeologist » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 10:05 PM UTC

praxeologist wrote: post #51

yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where, specifically, does the article conflate what you are saying? They explicitly list both work rules and the need to satisfy minimum test scores in the 6'th and 7'th paragraph. Yes, it would be stupid to not give a teacher or programmer instructions, but we're talking about each individual school not being able to do this, right? Right. Similarly, you don't hire a contractor, and ask him to write the spec for wha…

You aren't answering the question, be specific. The article says there that "Law is everywhere in schools." Then, it lists some ways teacher-student interaction is regulated. Then, it mentions how DOE mandated scoring reorients what the teacher does. This isn't conflating. This is showing two different ways the laws (deemed by unelected bureaucrats) affect the culture of the school. >Right. Similarly, you don't hire…

Typical, a coward votes me down rather than having a counterargument.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#73

Post by praxeologist » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 10:10 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #55

praxeologist wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, could these people miss the point more? It isn't about "removing measurable goals", rather letting each school set goals and not the DOE.

I see people arguing until they are blue that national standardized testing is bad. But it doesn't get them anywhere because they miss a crucial point: If someone gives money, they want measurable, or at least visible, results. If you want autonomy at the level L (federal/state/county/local), you can't take any money from any level greater than L. You may not want complete autonomy, just a better national system. If…

Nobody is giving money to public schools. It is taken under the threat of punishment. If you homeschool or put your kids in private schools, you still pay taxes for public schools.

By all measures test scores are not improving in spite of quadrupling the DOE budget over the past 40 years. How about them metrics? This suggests we should abolish the pervasive bureaucracy.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#74

Post by jeffdavis » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 10:38 PM UTC

praxeologist wrote: post #73

jeffdavis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people arguing until they are blue that national standardized testing is bad. But it doesn't get them anywhere because they miss a crucial point: If someone gives money, they want measurable, or at least visible, results. If you want autonomy at the level L (federal/state/county/local), you can't take any money from any level greater than L. You may not want complete autonomy, just a better national system. If…

Nobody is giving money to public schools. It is taken under the threat of punishment. If you homeschool or put your kids in private schools, you still pay taxes for public schools. By all measures test scores are not improving in spite of quadrupling the DOE budget over the past 40 years. How about them metrics? This suggests we should abolish the pervasive bureaucracy.

> Nobody is giving money to public schools. It is taken under the threat of punishment.

Let me rephrase to be more precise: a person who votes for federal education spending will also tend to vote for federal control over education (regardless of the effectiveness of that control).

And that goes for everything. Federal spending means federal control over anything related to that spending. Anything else is sustainable only by wishful thinking.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#75

Post by praxeologist » Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 12:29 AM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #74

praxeologist wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is giving money to public schools. It is taken under the threat of punishment. If you homeschool or put your kids in private schools, you still pay taxes for public schools. By all measures test scores are not improving in spite of quadrupling the DOE budget over the past 40 years. How about them metrics? This suggests we should abolish the pervasive bureaucracy.

> Nobody is giving money to public schools. It is taken under the threat of punishment. Let me rephrase to be more precise: a person who votes for federal education spending will also tend to vote for federal control over education (regardless of the effectiveness of that control). And that goes for everything. Federal spending means federal control over anything related to that spending. Anything else is sustainable…

Not only do people not pay for public schools in the same way they buy sweet & salty snacks because they want them, nobody "votes for federal education spending". About 1/2 of people who can vote in presidential election years and in other years about 1/3. Less than 1% of candidates propose even cuts to federal education spending, let alone abolishing the DOE.

$200 million goes to the Institute of Educational Sciences to track score data. In the absence of the IES would people pay this much for the data? I don't think so.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Anything else is sustainable only by wishful thinking." Education is not fundamentally different than any other good or service, besides that it is "important" and easy to convince the majority of people that it will cease to exist if the government doesn't provide it.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#76

Post by jeffdavis » Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

praxeologist wrote: post #75

jeffdavis wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is giving money to public schools. It is taken under the threat of punishment. Let me rephrase to be more precise: a person who votes for federal education spending will also tend to vote for federal control over education (regardless of the effectiveness of that control). And that goes for everything. Federal spending means federal control over anything related to that spending. Anything else is sustainable…

Not only do people not pay for public schools in the same way they buy sweet & salty snacks because they want them, nobody "votes for federal education spending". About 1/2 of people who can vote in presidential election years and in other years about 1/3. Less than 1% of candidates propose even cuts to federal education spending, let alone abolishing the DOE. $200 million goes to the Institute of Educational Science…

"Less than 1% of candidates propose even cuts to federal education spending, let alone abolishing the DOE."

At least two candidates proposed eliminating the DOE during the Republican primaries. One was Rick Perry, where the DOE was one of the 2 departments he remembered to cut; and the other was Ron Paul, who may or may not have said it explicitly, but I'm sure he has said so at some point.

I disagree. People do vote for federal education spending. This pressure to spend comes from somewhere. However irresponsible it is, many people simply vote for more money, regardless of where it comes from. Some people will even vote to have money taken from them and given back -- strings attached.

"I'm not sure what you mean by 'Anything else is sustainable only by wishful thinking'"

I meant that it's wishful thinking to expect money to keep raining down with no strings attached. I agree that education is not fundamentally different from other goods and services.