To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It • Hacker News Board

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#61

Post by ScottBurson » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 7:32 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #55

praxeologist wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, could these people miss the point more? It isn't about "removing measurable goals", rather letting each school set goals and not the DOE.

I see people arguing until they are blue that national standardized testing is bad. But it doesn't get them anywhere because they miss a crucial point: If someone gives money, they want measurable, or at least visible, results. If you want autonomy at the level L (federal/state/county/local), you can't take any money from any level greater than L. You may not want complete autonomy, just a better national system. If…

people generally know pretty well how their local schools are doing

Yes, they do, don't they? I think this is the essential fact that keeps getting forgotten.

I've long supported voucher systems for just this reason: they return control to the parents. Maybe vouchers aren't the best way to do that; I'm open to alternatives. But I think that's what we have to do.

(Edit: formatting)

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#62

Post by vannevar » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:01 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

ChristianMarks wrote: post #6

The Atlantic ought to read this NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/business/college-costs-are... Busting unions and destroying bureaucracies isn't going to change the way teaching is done fundamentally. What it will do is make teaching even less attractive as a profession. Most teachers I know value job security in exchange for salary. Take away security and you are left with little economic incentiv…

What it will do is make teaching even less attractive as a profession. Most teachers I know value job security in exchange for salary. Take away security and you are left with little economic incentive to stay. That's ok, there is already a mismatch between supply and demand in teaching. Apparently there is a surplus of at least 280,000 teachers, according to the Department of Education [1]. This indicates that teach…

This indicates that teachers are currently overcompensated...

More likely they are undervalued. Your citation makes the point that there are unemployed teachers because educational funding has been cut. It's also not clear from the citation that there are actually 280,000 'extra' teachers, only that the goal of the program is to support that many teachers in the classroom.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#63

Post by vannevar » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:12 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

jordanb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great many teachers have been laid off due to the funding crisis in local government. That crisis was caused by a decline in tax revenue, especially property taxes due to the housing bubble. It was delayed by funding from the Recovery Act but RA payments ended a long time ago. The result is that this country's local governments are spending much less on education than they were a few years ago, and therefore employ…

If you have a fixed amount of money to spend, you can either buy fewer items, or pay less per item. It's due primarily to union contracts that schools are buying fewer items. If they reduced the compensation of teachers (i.e., reduce price in response to a demand decrease), there would be no need to reduce the number of teachers.

But there is no decreased demand. In fact, in many communities there is increased demand. Education (like health care) is not amenable to overly simplified economic models, because (like health care) it's not an optional expense. The right answer might be to increase teacher salaries, bringing compensation on par with other professionals and thus attracting more qualified people, who in turn produce better-educated students, who in turn improve the local economy, providing greater tax revenue and more money to pay for the higher salaries.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#64

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:23 PM UTC

v0cab wrote: post #22

yummyfajitas wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While putting teachers in the same boat as waiters, programmers and CEOs does sound awful, I think children will still wind up being educated. Remember, the goal here is not to ensure teachers are never incorrectly fired, it's to educate children. If a few teachers are incorrectly fired, but student performance goes up, that's a win. This is what happens in many industries. For example, if a trader or hedge fund mana…

CEOs? Bad example there. I am very concerned about labour rights, as that will be very important in a world of ever-fewer jobs with more competition for those jobs, for the students when they grow up, and for now, when their parents need jobs to support their family. If students can get teachers fired with just an accusation, * The students will end up with a fragmented education from a chain of supply teachers and r…

The comparison to a trader or hedge fund manager doesn't stand, as the market cannot decide to deliberately move against him out of spite, a need for power, or boredom.

Others in the company can and often do. You seem unfamiliar with corporate politics.

Public school administrators would be more concerned about 'liability' and eliminating a source of 'hassle', than with the quality of the product.

This is why I favor holding them responsible for outcomes as well, and allowing them to be fired if things don't turn out well.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#65

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:25 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #60

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...The thing about measurable goals in teaching is that all of them are awful..." I learned to fly people around in airplanes using various instructional techniques, including at times studying for the test. So do most airline pilots. Seems to work for them. The military has been training people for over 200 years with measurable teaching goals. In fact, some of the best teachers are ex-military. I could continue if…

I test my software using methods of my own devising. Our customers love the software. It's unheard of for bugs to get out in a release. There is no central government agency counting how many lines of code per function point, how many spaces per tab, or what brace style I use. Nor should there be. The people at the local level are the only ones qualified to determine how to test. And the success is proven by the fact…

And the success is proven by the fact that we are leaders in our segment, reviews are good, customers are happy, and we are profitable.

Government run schools do not have this feedback mechanism.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#66

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:33 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #63

yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a fixed amount of money to spend, you can either buy fewer items, or pay less per item. It's due primarily to union contracts that schools are buying fewer items. If they reduced the compensation of teachers (i.e., reduce price in response to a demand decrease), there would be no need to reduce the number of teachers.

But there is no decreased demand. In fact, in many communities there is increased demand. Education (like health care) is not amenable to overly simplified economic models, because (like health care) it's not an optional expense. The right answer might be to increase teacher salaries, bringing compensation on par with other professionals and thus attracting more qualified people, who in turn produce better-educated s…

But there is no decreased demand.

Of course there is - the quantity demanded at a fixed price is set to go down by (according to the DoE) 280,000. I.e., the demand curve has shifted left.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#67

Post by rdl » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:48 PM UTC

ylem wrote: post #43

jordanb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great many teachers have been laid off due to the funding crisis in local government. That crisis was caused by a decline in tax revenue, especially property taxes due to the housing bubble. It was delayed by funding from the Recovery Act but RA payments ended a long time ago. The result is that this country's local governments are spending much less on education than they were a few years ago, and therefore employ…

My sister was a special ed. teacher in San Diego--when she started, she was making somewhere between $30-40K/year. Teacher's salaries are public, so we could look up what the current salary scale is, but I doubt it will have changed significantly. During the summer, teachers often take classes towards their certification. Later, some may take a job somewhere like a bookstore or home depot, which offers seasonal work.…

The effective "trapping" of women to only work in education and nursing was a huge subsidy to those fields. It seems like the US education system (quality and cost) and medical system (cost, at least) started to really fall apart around when women had other career options.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#68

Post by rdl » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 8:52 PM UTC

v0cab wrote: post #9

Shivetya wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unions certainly do nothing to protect the students from the teachers, if the NYC area is any example. They exaggerate the costs of educating students and usually exert too much influence over local elections thereby insuring their continued existence and near immunity to control. Unions operate to serve themselves, their political contacts next, then their members; they certainly could care less about the business.…

I thought public school teachers in the US were considered to be underpaid? Certainly compared to public school teachers in South Korea, they don't earn that much compared to the national average salary. I don't believe there are sufficient laws in the US to protect teachers. The US's employment laws are poorly-regarded in the rest of the Western world. And what about at-will employment states? Teachers would be fire…

Good teachers are underpaid, mediocre and bad teachers are underpaid, since the industry is regulated to pay based on seniority and a strict scale, vs. merit and performance.

(Same thing with government employees; there are great scientists in the government who could make 10x that much outside the government, and plenty of seat-warmers.)

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#69

Post by ChristianMarks » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 9:06 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

vannevar wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is no decreased demand. In fact, in many communities there is increased demand. Education (like health care) is not amenable to overly simplified economic models, because (like health care) it's not an optional expense. The right answer might be to increase teacher salaries, bringing compensation on par with other professionals and thus attracting more qualified people, who in turn produce better-educated s…

But there is no decreased demand. Of course there is - the quantity demanded at a fixed price is set to go down by (according to the DoE) 280,000. I.e., the demand curve has shifted left.

This is economically incompetent and probably ideologically motivated. All that you can conclude from the DoE statement is that if 280,000 teachers employed under the Jobs Act were to find themselves unemployed, then they would be unemployed. They say absolutely nothing about the demand curve before or after the Jobs Act. Other comments pointed out the economic circumstances that would have made Federal funding of a public good necessary to make up for the local government shortfall. My condolences to your deceased neurons.

Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It

#70

Post by ChristianMarks » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 9:28 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #62

yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What it will do is make teaching even less attractive as a profession. Most teachers I know value job security in exchange for salary. Take away security and you are left with little economic incentive to stay. That's ok, there is already a mismatch between supply and demand in teaching. Apparently there is a surplus of at least 280,000 teachers, according to the Department of Education [1]. This indicates that teach…

This indicates that teachers are currently overcompensated... More likely they are undervalued. Your citation makes the point that there are unemployed teachers because educational funding has been cut. It's also not clear from the citation that there are actually 280,000 'extra' teachers, only that the goal of the program is to support that many teachers in the classroom.

Thank you for pointing out the invalid inference. The hidden agenda is that the government should not be supporting jobs.