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Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

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Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#71
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post #16

I find myself becoming more and more sensitive to this basic mistake: We know relativity is wrong somehow. We know quantum mechanics is wrong somehow. They're both incredibly correct with their predictions but they don't go together, so they can't both be right and in the end they both have to be wrong somehow. Two of the places where they are both clearly somehow wrong are gravity (completely missing from QM, incomp…

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By my reading, a lot of it just boils down to the "all models are wrong, but some are useful" aphorism, but denigrating models' usefulness in a philosophical context, calling the implications of relativity and whatnot "a waste of time".

I think this is overly reductive. Indeed, many consequences that follow from the nonexistence or impossibility of a certain thing, event, or effect are brittle to the physical model being refined to include additional effects. But plenty of important consequences follow from existence or possibility and can be directly supported through experimental evidence.

For instance, Newtonian physics predict absolute simultaneity: if one observer measures that two events occurred at the same time, then all other observers will measure likewise, regardless of their relative position or velocity. But special relativity violates this, instead predicting relativity of simultaneity. As long as special relativity's predictions hold to any extent (which, experimentally, they do), then simultaneity is definitely relative and not absolute. There's no way to recover absolute simultaneity short of postulating a grand cosmic conspiracy. And learning that the arrow of time isn't absolute definitely isn't a waste of time!

Also, I think it's unwarranted to say that just because some consequences of nonexistence have historically been invalidated in the past, all the consequences of nonexistence in our current theories are inevitably going to fall over with further evidence. Why should we expect a priori that we haven't yet discovered a single true invariant of our universe? After all, some observed invariants, such as the conservation of energy, have withstood the numerous revisions to our physical models, and it seems odd to blithely assert that they'll be invalidated any year now. In the limit, to say that exceptions will be discovered to every principle ever is to say that the universe doesn't run on any kind of laws.

And if we do concede that at least some of our current models' invariants truly do hold in reality, then it's no longer a waste of time to study their implications, since some subset of our findings will remain just as accurate now matter how far our models are revised.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe living impassively at the top of a rich world hegemony while children are starving is wrong but we are too used to it to notice.

Ohh, it's not just the rich world that's guilty. Do you think there are no bars in Haiti? Do you think they don't waste stuff on "personal luxuries" in Bangladesh? Do you think they don't waste their time and resources on shopping malls in Ethiopia? They waste resources that could have gone to the malnourished children of their own country! Monsters, the lot of them, just as bad as the rich-worlders. Ethics demands w…

> "It takes 5 dollars to save a starving African child, a night out with friends is the equivalent to abandoning a bus of drowning children to their deaths".

These philosophical thought experiments are too simplistic to offer any guidance. Five dollars does not save any starving child; he will need food for the rest of his childhood. And they also neglect the social aspect of the problem. What if the whole neighborhood or country is poor? It is more sensible to attack this problem using the tools of developmental economics; how can we alleviate the problem for everyone over time?

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#73

Perhaps it went over my head but in summary he wanted the scientific process of discovery in physics research to stop because his philosophy couldn't keep up?

Anytime this philosophy vs. science comes up I like to quote Richard Feynman:

"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds."

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people living in third world countries would definitely be included in that especially because rather than some vague "foreign policy" being the causal link for culpability they can often be the corrupt individuals creating the problem themselves. Saying "people who live in penthouses next to Indian slums might be living their life wrong too" is not exactly an expression of disagreement.

Perhaps I was unclear. I wasn't talking about rich people. Poor people need to enjoy life just as much as rich people, if not more. Who spends more time at bars, the rich or the poor? Do you think an Ethiopian community is immoral because it puts effort into having enjoyable festivals, dignified funerals and large weddings? Think of all the effort that could have gone to the starving children! Here's a more practical…

Having a party when there are people starving outside may actually be immoral, yes, even in Ethiopia. I'm not basing my argument on "Americans bad" so much as admitting there could be something to this whole "how are you so able to ignore the extreme suffering of others?" question... Maybe we would be better if none of us could do that.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ohh, it's not just the rich world that's guilty. Do you think there are no bars in Haiti? Do you think they don't waste stuff on "personal luxuries" in Bangladesh? Do you think they don't waste their time and resources on shopping malls in Ethiopia? They waste resources that could have gone to the malnourished children of their own country! Monsters, the lot of them, just as bad as the rich-worlders. Ethics demands w…

> "It takes 5 dollars to save a starving African child, a night out with friends is the equivalent to abandoning a bus of drowning children to their deaths". These philosophical thought experiments are too simplistic to offer any guidance. Five dollars does not save any starving child; he will need food for the rest of his childhood. And they also neglect the social aspect of the problem. What if the whole neighborho…

I completely agree. Funnily enough, the first published work of economics Glasgow professor of moral philosophy wrote a book about systemic issues. Before that, philosophers from Aristotle to Hume dealt with matters like credit and currency as ethical issues.

The only think I'd have to add is I don't think the thought experiment is merely "too simplistic". It's an evil sophistry designed to make people believe ethical conduct is unattainable.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain "believe."

"Believe" means you are willing to consider some results as premises for your next deduction.

What I'm willing to do is very personal. Personally, I don't need epistemology to judge whether I'm willing to consider some results for my next deduction, and no philosopher is in a position to tell me otherwise.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#77
post #7

> Of course, one of the most successful aspects of science has been to describe the world in a sense that is true without relying on appearances. For example, Descartes very successfully describes the moon illusion (why it appears larger closer to the horizon) in his book on optics. As science progressed, it continued to correct for more and more illusions that were not limited to the realm of the visual. Thus Laplac…

Science is about explaining the data, and "the data" includes our perceptions of the world. In fact, that is all that we have direct access to. So... our perceptions of the world include a constant stream of overwhelming evidence that the world is classical, a 3-D space inhabited by objects that exist in particular places at particular times. So when evidence comes along that this isn't actually true, it can cause so…

> So... our perceptions of the world include a constant stream of overwhelming evidence that the world is classical, a 3-D space inhabited by objects that exist in particular places at particular times. So when evidence comes along that this isn't actually true, it can cause some pretty severe cognitive dissonance, and at best it demands an explanation of why the world appears classical even though it isn't.

It would be extremely difficult for anybody to accept the evidence provided by quantum mechanics without some additional explanation for how our mind constructs a "classical" reality to go along with it. Modern physics happened along with a materialistic explanation of the origin of mind to go along with it, I don't think either could have advanced without the other.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#78
post #47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you still need epistemology to tell you why you can believe the results of the experiments No, you don't. This is a common mistake. Science is not about knowledge , it's about explanations . The whole idea of "knowledge" is just part of a vast web of explanations that turn out to be exceptionally good at accounting for the data. > logical positivism The mistake of logical positivism is the unjustified assumption th…

How do you define "explanation"?

Speech which conjures in the mind of the listener a model of the world with which they can make deductions about their sensory experiences

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#79
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what?

How do you believe the results you are getting? What makes such a belief justified? What is the nature of consciousness? What are things beautiful? What makes something ascetically pleasing. Why any of this exists at all? What is the purpose of this existence? Is something ethical? Science can provide answer about consequences of an action but cannot determine if said action is moral or ethical. … science is not a bo…

Few scientists try to answer these questions for me. I expect philosophers to have as much humility.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#80
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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By my reading, a lot of it just boils down to the "all models are wrong, but some are useful" aphorism, but denigrating models' usefulness in a philosophical context, calling the implications of relativity and whatnot "a waste of time". I think this is overly reductive. Indeed, many consequences that follow from the nonexistence or impossibility of a certain thing, event, or effect are brittle to the physical model b…

I would characterize it more as "All models are wrong, some are useful, but it is never useful to use a model in a domain it is known to be wrong in".

We are extremely confident in the wrongness of relativity and QM in this matter, so using them in that particular way for philosophy is really a waste of time.

One could sensibly write philosophy of the form "If string theory is true, then..." or "If Loop Quantum Gravity is true, then...", because while those are not proved, they are also not proved actively wrong in the relevant ways.

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