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Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

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Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#41
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the hubris of physicists to call their trade a replacement for philosophy exposes the fatal flaw in scientism.

Why is that a fatal flaw?

It's also worth adding that the scientific method is fundamentally based on unprovable axiomatic assumptions. In other words it's still philosophy all the way down. To be clear, I don't think all philosophical ideas are equally valid and this particular set of axioms has proven quite useful in practice, but at best all we can really say is that it provides a user window for examining reality. We don't know how wide that window happens to be and how much of reality we can see through it.

We don't even know if the scientific method is the best it could be in what we use it for. After all, it was only expanded with the idea of falsification in the 20th century yet we were still doing useful science before than.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#42
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a fatal flaw?

Because even if you have experimental results in your favor, you still need epistemology to tell you why you can believe the results of the experiments. And you can't derive epistemology from experiments. Logical positivism tried to do this, and failed. Michael Polanyi's Personal Knowledge pretty much killed logical positivism, because he showed that no scientist is in the fully objective position that was required t…

Why is that flaw fatal? Just borrow epistemology from the philosophers of whatever. Purity and inter-field spats are stupid, scientists just want the results.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#43
post #7

> Of course, one of the most successful aspects of science has been to describe the world in a sense that is true without relying on appearances. For example, Descartes very successfully describes the moon illusion (why it appears larger closer to the horizon) in his book on optics. As science progressed, it continued to correct for more and more illusions that were not limited to the realm of the visual. Thus Laplac…

Science is about explaining the data, and "the data" includes our perceptions of the world. In fact, that is all that we have direct access to. So... our perceptions of the world include a constant stream of overwhelming evidence that the world is classical, a 3-D space inhabited by objects that exist in particular places at particular times. So when evidence comes along that this isn't actually true, it can cause so…

Science doesn't explain anything. Scientific "laws" are just very efficiently compressed experimental/observational data

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#44
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a fatal flaw?

Because even if you have experimental results in your favor, you still need epistemology to tell you why you can believe the results of the experiments. And you can't derive epistemology from experiments. Logical positivism tried to do this, and failed. Michael Polanyi's Personal Knowledge pretty much killed logical positivism, because he showed that no scientist is in the fully objective position that was required t…

> Michael Polanyi's _Personal Knowledge_ pretty much killed logical positivism, because he showed that no scientist is in the fully objective position that was required to set up and evaluate the experiments.

That's an unusual claim. It's typically attributed to the criticisms of Popper and Quine, after which the foundations were undermined.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#45
It is very hard to read philosophy in this phenomenological/continental tradition. There is a real resistance in that tradition to plainly stating a core thesis. There may well be defensible reasons for this - maybe it preserves the subtleties, peculiar texture; the holistic, or even contradictory nature of thought or consciousness or what have you. But I think a lot of the time these philosophers won't come right out and say what they mean because they don't really know what they mean, and any sufficiently plain statement of their views would reveal itself as either trivially correct, or obviously wrong. Here is an example:

> Bergson seems to argue that even Einstein’s concept of time, as what’s measured by a clock, is based on some more fundamental, more real, non-mathematical view of time, time as we perceive it, which might defy exact mathematical expression. What sense of time does Bergson have in mind here?

> Consider, for example, how different pre-modern notions of time are from ours. When I write about the history of time in contemporary times, I always have in the back of my mind the image of Saturn devouring his son. In it, the passage, keeping and telling of time occurs be reference to love, violence, anthropophagy and reproduction. Throughout time, it is clear that we are dealing with radically different beasts. Bergson did not draw such stark distinctions, but in Duration and Simultaneity he asked us not to forget how time was a precondition for effective action. “Le temps est pour moi ce qu'il y a de plus réel et de plus nécessaire ; c'est la condition fondamentale de l'action ; – que dis-je ? c'est l'action même.”

> Einstein’s definition of time has none of these radical elements and might even be responsible for leading us to forget about them.

This question gets at the heart of the matter: what exactly is the disagreement between Bergson and Einstein? And we get a non-answer as far as I can tell. I have no idea what "radical elements" she is referencing. There some notion about ideas like "violence" or "reproduction" being stand-ins for the concept of time? and something about time being a precondition for, or even identical to, action? Violence and reproduction and action per se all take a non-zero amount of clock time, so I don't what the conflict is here.

---

Ok, enough rambling. If anyone has a reaction similar to mine, they might find a more relatable exploration of this subject in Wilfrid Sellars' concepts of the the (naive, common-sensical, person-centric) "manifest image" and the "scientific image", and the role of philosophy in reconciling them.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#46
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philosophy can approach many questions that currently feel out of the realm of science

Like what?

Love this vsauce video for some examples

https://youtu.be/fXW-QjBsruE?si=FmgmYH8BDWrkIcMJ

There’s still a lot of value in philosophy when we use it to think about how we structure and rationalize the world.

Even if science gives us ever better models of the underlying reality of the universe, there’s still the understanding of how we conceptualize that reality and what it means to us. Specifically in ways that don’t require religion or supernatural beings, nor in purely psychological means of perception or physiology.

I think of it as the study of the emergent properties of complex information processing. It can do things like help us talk about the minds of others, for example future AI, potential extraterrestrial intelligences, or even other terrestrial intelligences (dolphins, octopus, etc)

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because even if you have experimental results in your favor, you still need epistemology to tell you why you can believe the results of the experiments. And you can't derive epistemology from experiments. Logical positivism tried to do this, and failed. Michael Polanyi's Personal Knowledge pretty much killed logical positivism, because he showed that no scientist is in the fully objective position that was required t…

> you still need epistemology to tell you why you can believe the results of the experiments No, you don't. This is a common mistake. Science is not about knowledge , it's about explanations . The whole idea of "knowledge" is just part of a vast web of explanations that turn out to be exceptionally good at accounting for the data. > logical positivism The mistake of logical positivism is the unjustified assumption th…

How do you define "explanation"?

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#48
> It has become a dominant view in the philosophy of time that Einstein’s Theory of Relativity showed that the passage of time is an illusion, and that in fact the past, present, and future all coexist.

The first paragraph is already troubling for me, the "fact the past, present, and future all coexist" is a gross misinterpretation of general relativity, a borderline esoteric atrology-type view, and I can't believe that such mistaken view grew to be the "dominant view in the philosophy".

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#49
post #32
post #16

I find myself becoming more and more sensitive to this basic mistake: We know relativity is wrong somehow. We know quantum mechanics is wrong somehow. They're both incredibly correct with their predictions but they don't go together, so they can't both be right and in the end they both have to be wrong somehow. Two of the places where they are both clearly somehow wrong are gravity (completely missing from QM, incomp…

[flagged]

It doesn’t look downvoted to me. I think this post of true and nice, but I can’t think of anything to discuss about it.

Because of the way the ranking system works here, spats like the philosophy/physics thing will always rise to the top, I think.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#50

TFA is presented as an interview. It's not clear to me who is asking the questions, and who is answering.

Interviewee: Jimena Canales | Historian of science and author of The Physicist and the Philosopher: Einstein, Bergson and the Debate That Changed Our Understanding of Time (2015) as well as Bedeviled: A Shadow History of Demons in Science (2020). Interviewer: Alexis Papazoglou | Senior editor for IAI News, the online magazine of the Institute of Art and Ideas, and former philosophy lecturer at Cambridge and Royal Hol…

Thanks.
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