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Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

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Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#71

Post by Cerium »

crazygringo wrote: post #39
ct520 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low transaction limits? I regularly send $xx,xxx through zelle. Guess I got to up my game..

At which bank? The highest available limit I can find is $5,000 per day, and that's limited to private clients and businesses: https://www.gobankingrates.com/banking/mobile/zelle-limits/ Common limits vary between $500 and $2,500 as you can see. I've never heard of anyone being able to use it to send $10K in a single transaction, so it would be very helpful to know where you can do that.

My business account says: "Daily limit: instant delivery $7,000"

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#72

Post by lobf »

yieldcrv wrote: post #70
CalChris wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Zelle all the time but with people I know. In fact, I can't remember where my check book is. I use Apple Pay all the time and I use an actual credit card about once a month. I use cash at one place, my taco truck of choice. And for the record, I've never touched bitcoin. I've used PayPal and Venmo but I don't see their utility now and prefer Apple Pay. All of these modern tools have their benefits and risks. I…

lol checkbook, never had one an employer’s direct deposit system, at a third party payroll company asked me for a voided check I photoshopped my bank account and routing number on a stock image of a voided check I get paid no problem. dumb process.

The point of a voided check is to prevent an issue in case you make a mistake manually recording your checking and routing numbers. It’s just an insurance policy- there’s really no reason not to do it.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#73

Post by cge »

crazygringo wrote: post #39
ct520 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low transaction limits? I regularly send $xx,xxx through zelle. Guess I got to up my game..

At which bank? The highest available limit I can find is $5,000 per day, and that's limited to private clients and businesses: https://www.gobankingrates.com/banking/mobile/zelle-limits/ Common limits vary between $500 and $2,500 as you can see. I've never heard of anyone being able to use it to send $10K in a single transaction, so it would be very helpful to know where you can do that.

BofA/ML appears to have default limits of $15k/day for wealth management clients, and $25k/day for private bank clients, though there is a footnote stating that limits may actually be higher depending on the client. So at least for BofA/ML, they seem to essentially make higher transfer limits dependent on how much you're paying them in management fees.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#74

Post by [deleted] »

burnte wrote: post #9

In 2009 I met some Israeli developers in Atlanta who were trying to get meetings with some of the banks in the area (there are a number of corporate bank offices here for big banks) to hawk their direct payment system, which was exactly what Zelle is. I contracted with them and got them some meetings, I was basically a rent-a-laowai for them to get meetings here. I never heard what happened to them after that, and wh…

[deleted]

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#75

Post by hot_gril »

randyrand wrote: post #67

Zelle is like cash. And like cash, it has the same problem. Once you give it, you can't demand it back without courts.

The common Zelle scams I've heard of rely on how Zelle doesn't work like cash. It is possible to reverse Zelle payments, but only in very specific circumstances like compromised bank creds. So the scammer will manipulate you into giving a clean, irreversible payment in exchange for a dirty one that later gets reversed.

It's also a lot easier to send like $5K to some faceless entity with Zelle than with cash.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#76

Post by randyrand »

hot_gril wrote: post #75
randyrand wrote: post #67

Zelle is like cash. And like cash, it has the same problem. Once you give it, you can't demand it back without courts.

The common Zelle scams I've heard of rely on how Zelle doesn't work like cash. It is possible to reverse Zelle payments, but only in very specific circumstances like compromised bank creds. So the scammer will manipulate you into giving a clean, irreversible payment in exchange for a dirty one that later gets reversed. It's also a lot easier to send like $5K to some faceless entity with Zelle than with cash.

TIL! Tricky.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#77

Post by hot_gril »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #29

"Consumers defrauded with cash are left high and dry by the Federal Reserve Bank that created it".

I'm fine if a payment method is escrow-free and non-reversible, and I'm told that upfront. Oddly enough, that's like a rare luxury. Even Zelle is only half that: authorized payments are never reversed (i.e. they don't act as an escrow), but unauthorized ones (hacked account, etc) can be.

This is posted somewhere, but I also tested it myself. Previous landlord had stolen my security deposit. I went to my Chase branch and called several different numbers trying to reverse the final month's rent, which had been Zelle'd. After initially getting the half-truth that payments cannot be reversed, I found the right person who asked sternly if the payment was unauthorized, saying I could reverse it if it was. I had to say no. So no dice, I had to go sue the landlord instead.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#78

Post by yieldcrv »

lobf wrote: post #72
yieldcrv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol checkbook, never had one an employer’s direct deposit system, at a third party payroll company asked me for a voided check I photoshopped my bank account and routing number on a stock image of a voided check I get paid no problem. dumb process.

The point of a voided check is to prevent an issue in case you make a mistake manually recording your checking and routing numbers. It’s just an insurance policy- there’s really no reason not to do it.

yes its good that its just to help avoid user error instead of a real requirement, its bad that its masqueraded as a real requirement

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#79

Post by cuteboy19 »

notyourwork wrote: post #61
paulocal wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened to a friend of mine. She had listed a mattress with bed for sale on FB marketplace. Someone reached out and bought it and said would arrange pick up. They sent a screenshot of them Zelleing her. After a few minutes they reached out and told her they changed their mind because they cant pick it up and if they can Zelle them back. She did thinking it just hadn't hit her account yet. $1800 down the drain.

So she sent $1800 to someone without first seeing a pending transaction of any kind for a $1800 credit? Some things have to be learned the hard way if that's all it takes.

The solution for this is instant SMS narratives. If you do any kind of transaction, whether receiving or sending, you will get an SMS detailing the (completed) transaction.

Over time people will be conditioned to wait for the SMS before finishing any transaction

That is how UPI does it anyways

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#80

Post by cuteboy19 »

I agree that at some point people need to take some responsibility for being scammed. However, it seems that Zelle is engineered in the perfect way to help scammers.

It is as though a committee of engineers and consultants sat together and said "How do we create the perfect vehicle for as many different types of scams as possible?"

  - Maybe! instant settlement
  - No standardized audit trail
  - No way to know who's really on the other side
  - Send money into the void
  - 2FA but not really
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