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Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

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Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#61

Post by notyourwork »

paulocal wrote: post #52
cuteboy19 wrote: post #31

What do the scams actually look like?

This happened to a friend of mine. She had listed a mattress with bed for sale on FB marketplace. Someone reached out and bought it and said would arrange pick up. They sent a screenshot of them Zelleing her. After a few minutes they reached out and told her they changed their mind because they cant pick it up and if they can Zelle them back. She did thinking it just hadn't hit her account yet. $1800 down the drain.

So she sent $1800 to someone without first seeing a pending transaction of any kind for a $1800 credit? Some things have to be learned the hard way if that's all it takes.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#62

Post by isanengineer »

ISO-morphism wrote: post #54
ben0x539 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also found that Zelle is basically just a front-end for the existing ACH Direct Deposit system. [...] > > tl;dr do not ever use Zelle. I can't figure out how to do ACH transfers to friends with my credit union, and I've been told Zelle is the solution for that. I guess I should stick to Venmo?

In the US, Zelle vs. Venmo is comparable to debit card vs. credit card. With Zelle/debit, you're basically mailing cash - it might get lost in transit, your money is gone right away. With Venmo/credit, there's a middleman with a big pile of cash that assumes the risk of money being in-flight, and usually eats fraud/errors as a cost of doing business in exchange for selling data about your spending to advertisers.

This exactly. And this is the reason that Venmo or Paypal need to charge fees for commercial transactions, because they're providing a service. What bugs me is that Zelle seems to be marketed as equivalent to those other digital payment platforms, but in reality it's very different.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#63

Post by majormajor »

steelframe wrote: post #60

For anyone extolling the virtues of credit cards as the ultimate payer-friendly solution, my "exhibit A" is a vendor who charged my card and then put a freeze on actually shipping the product. Then they tried calling me while my phone didn't have a signal. Then they sent me an email saying their "verification" department couldn't reach me and to let them know when they can call. I replied telling them when they could…

"Pay before the item ships" is nearly ubiquitous online even if you used Paypal or a debit card or whatever. Maybe if you'd used a method like that they'd not even be pretending to think about sending your item, vs just pocketing your cash.

I'm not sure "vendor is so paranoid about fraud because credit cards are too consumer friendly, thus credit cards aren't payer-friendly" follows from this story more than "vendor is just acting in bad faith."

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#64

Post by [deleted] »

isanengineer wrote: post #36

It's not just fraud you need to worry about. Here's a horror story for you. A few years back I was moving to a city for graduate school and needed to rent an apartment. A friend of mine toured the place and when we decided to rent the landlord asked if we could send him the security deposit using Zelle. I sent the deposit using his contact information, but he never received it. I spent three weeks being passed back a…

[deleted]

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#65

Post by WalterBright »

steelframe wrote: post #60

For anyone extolling the virtues of credit cards as the ultimate payer-friendly solution, my "exhibit A" is a vendor who charged my card and then put a freeze on actually shipping the product. Then they tried calling me while my phone didn't have a signal. Then they sent me an email saying their "verification" department couldn't reach me and to let them know when they can call. I replied telling them when they could…

Now and then someone "hacks" my pathetic Javascript shopping cart to buy software for $1 instead of the usual price. I just send them an email with a balance due for the rest of the purchase price. Never hear from them again.

I accepted credit cards for many years until I was subjected to repeated "carding" attacks. The credit card processor blamed me for them, and was unable to tell me how to avoid such attacks. My solution was to not accept credit cards anymore.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#66

Post by stu2b50 »

steelframe wrote: post #60

For anyone extolling the virtues of credit cards as the ultimate payer-friendly solution, my "exhibit A" is a vendor who charged my card and then put a freeze on actually shipping the product. Then they tried calling me while my phone didn't have a signal. Then they sent me an email saying their "verification" department couldn't reach me and to let them know when they can call. I replied telling them when they could…

What part of that is the fault of using a credit card? I'm extra confused since Amazon came into this, where you distinctly are able to use credit cards?

With a credit card, you have the fallback of chargebacking. That's the benefit. You haven't gotten to that stage, although you certainly could have escalated to there by now.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#68

Post by stu2b50 »

akira2501 wrote: post #33
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #29

"Consumers defrauded with cash are left high and dry by the Federal Reserve Bank that created it".

Did the Federal Reserve promise me that cash was always "safe, fast and convenient?" Are they getting a cut of every dollar I spend?

What part of Zelle isn't safe, fast, and convenient, that is actually scoped under Zelle's responsibilities? Zelle is for moving money from bank account A to bank account B - that's where its responsibilities end.

> Are they getting a cut of every dollar I spend?

They aren't.

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#69

Post by constantly »

steelframe wrote: post #60

For anyone extolling the virtues of credit cards as the ultimate payer-friendly solution, my "exhibit A" is a vendor who charged my card and then put a freeze on actually shipping the product. Then they tried calling me while my phone didn't have a signal. Then they sent me an email saying their "verification" department couldn't reach me and to let them know when they can call. I replied telling them when they could…

This is a really good story to highlight how good credit cards are for this situation. It’s totally reasonable for a vendor to freeze shipping via credit card purchase until they’ve received confirmation they will be paid. Basically modern escrow. Sorry you seem to have been caught up in a rare edge case, I’ve been in the same situation, but am super happy that the system makes 99% of payments totally frictionless unless occasionally I’m traveling abroad (or ordering abroad) and they have additional checks.

Long live the virtues of credit card payments!

Re: Consumers defrauded on Zelle are left high and dry by the banks that created it [pdf]

#70

Post by yieldcrv »

CalChris wrote: post #42
isanengineer wrote: post #36

It's not just fraud you need to worry about. Here's a horror story for you. A few years back I was moving to a city for graduate school and needed to rent an apartment. A friend of mine toured the place and when we decided to rent the landlord asked if we could send him the security deposit using Zelle. I sent the deposit using his contact information, but he never received it. I spent three weeks being passed back a…

I use Zelle all the time but with people I know. In fact, I can't remember where my check book is. I use Apple Pay all the time and I use an actual credit card about once a month. I use cash at one place, my taco truck of choice. And for the record, I've never touched bitcoin. I've used PayPal and Venmo but I don't see their utility now and prefer Apple Pay. All of these modern tools have their benefits and risks. I…

lol checkbook, never had one

an employer’s direct deposit system, at a third party payroll company asked me for a voided check

I photoshopped my bank account and routing number on a stock image of a voided check

I get paid no problem. dumb process.

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