Wow, that was absolutely harrowing. Easily the most emotionally powerful thing I've read in the NYTimes (or any other major newspaper) in a while. It really puts into perspective just how horrible the conditions are for these people; it's easy to hear about NK in the news, or hear about defectors, and think little of it except for "what a shame", but this really puts into context the sheer inhumanity of the situation, the complacency of the Chinese government, and the depraved acts—like that of the North Korean woman and the police officer—that people can do to other, vulnerable, people.
Defecting from North Korea is now harder
71–80 of 201 posts
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely. I would definitely not like to live or even visit there. I just think that every story has 2 sides, and we don't hear the other side very often.
I absolutely despise this "every story has two sides" quip. No, every story doesn't have two sides. Yes, every story has multiple versions full of complete bullshit, but when we talk about a "side" we mean a reputable reliable side, and it is not the case that every story has two equally debatable and reputable sides. Sometimes a spade is a spade.
I see where you are coming from, and I'm not saying that North Korean media or propaganda is reliable or the absolute truth. But does that mean the US "side" is reliable? Is the US really on the "right side" of the history of the world?
For exemple, did you know the US launched 3 bombs for every person in Laos? There are VILLAGES in Laos built with unexploded bomb left overs from the Vietnam War.
Did you know that there are children being born with life threatening health problems in Vietnam due to the amount of orange gas the US dropped there 40 years ago?
And quoting from a recent speech from Trump this year: "How about we are buying oil from Venezuela? When I left, Venezuela was ready to collapse, we would have taken it up, would have gotten all that oil, it would have been right next door"
Is this the reliable country we should blindly believe? Are they really insterested in telling us the truth or are they just saying/doing whatever is needed to protect their interests?
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. The article briefly discusses the impact of COVID, highlighting China's implementation of supplementary measures and limitations during this period. It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. However, as the article states it can also be used for malicious exploitation. 2. If your question is about why they go to Thailand instead of…
>It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. Any evidence for that? Actually, any evidence that contact tracing has actually had any benefits wherever it has been tried? I'm sure it helps at very, very early stages of a pandemic, and even then depending on which virus we are trying to trace... But I'd like to see actual proof that it hel…
Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious.
Otherwise, I’m not particularly interested in having a COVID conversation.
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#74That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…
The South Korean constitution treats North Korea as an integral part of its territory, currently occupied by hostile forces. Therefore, anyone from North Korea is automatically, and in fact always has been, a citizen of South Korea. It's not just asylum, nor "de facto" citizenship. It's full citizenship, period.
There's a mandatory program that every refugee must go through, not only to get them accustomed to South Korean culture but also to filter out spies and criminals. You will be under surveillance for a long time afterward. But even if you turn out to be a spy, you are still a citizen of South Korea and will be punished as such. The law simply does not recognize any such thing as "North Korean citizenship".
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#75I'm not saying North Korea is a paradise or anything, but the country is technically still at war with the South Korea, which is heavily backed by the US. I wonder how much can be trusted from a NY Times(a US media company) article written by the "Seoul bureau chief for The New York Times".
As with any news, you take it with a pinch of salt. Nothing new here. Are there particular things in this report which you don't agree with, or consider suspicious, or know that it's an outright lie?
This article could have come straight from a fiction book. There is no evidence for anything that is being presented. It might be true, it might not be.
I'm not arguing they are lying or not, I'm just saying that we shouldn't blindly believe it.
But watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUMZS-ZegM made me a little bit skeptical about those defector stories. It's a very good watch, and I guess it doesn't hurt to hear a different perspective.
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. Any evidence for that? Actually, any evidence that contact tracing has actually had any benefits wherever it has been tried? I'm sure it helps at very, very early stages of a pandemic, and even then depending on which virus we are trying to trace... But I'd like to see actual proof that it hel…
Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious. Otherwise, I’m not particularly interested in having a COVID conversation.
It's not a conversation about COVID. It's one about contact tracing. And yes I think that evidence should always be required when talking about potential tools for such mass surveillance. "It makes sense" isn't really proof for anything, as the last pandemic has proven times and times again. For example here in Quebec, contact tracing apps and tracking location of everyone with covid has had pretty much no measurable effect. Even fundamental questions like "what is a contact" are hard to answer, so actual studies might be helpful for this conversation.
And again, even tracing infectious contacts was much easier with mass tracking of every single citizens location, that still doesn't mean it is actually useful to stop a pandemic. It might be! Which is why I was asking for good evidence.
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
[flagged]
I mean what I said. I don't care for power structures either way and would gladly see the CCP dissolved, but these apologetics of US war crimes and direct interference in democratic process of other nations is repulsive, and I'm not going to entertain the absurd idea that it is somehow justified or good.
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
Did you mean "authoritarian" regimes? Communism doesn't imply the same things.
Communist theory may not imply those things, but it always comes down to them in practice.
I have a theory that if you jump of a tall building and wave your hands really hard, you can fly. This theory does not imply you falling to your death. And if you do, it just means you weren't really following my method.
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s also a country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their great leader is born under a double rainbow and descended straight from heaven, didn’t defecate ever, learnt to walk aged 3 weeks (yup) and to speak 5 weeks later at 8 weeks (yup), wrote 1500 books over 3 years, along with 6 operas (the bestest in the history of music, no less), and scored a 38 under par with 11 holes in one on the one and only N…
I'm sure you learned all that from other US/South Korean articles like this one, right? I watched a documentary about North Korean defectors that wanted to go back to North Korea, one of the many reasons was to be with their families. They never mentioned their family were imprisioned. And it wouldn't make much sense to want to go back if their family was imprisioned. Again, I'm no North Korean supporter or whatever,…
Oh come on
Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious. Otherwise, I’m not particularly interested in having a COVID conversation.
It's not a conversation about COVID. It's one about contact tracing. And yes I think that evidence should always be required when talking about potential tools for such mass surveillance. "It makes sense" isn't really proof for anything, as the last pandemic has proven times and times again. For example here in Quebec, contact tracing apps and tracking location of everyone with covid has had pretty much no measurable…
> that still doesn't mean it is actually useful to stop a pandemic
You're arguing against ghosts. That is not what I said, or even implied. I wrote:
> It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts.
Tracking movement is obviously helpful for contact tracing, because you can track the proximity of individuals to each other and warn those who were near a confirmed case.
I wrote absolutely nothing on whether contact tracing is impactful, and I wrote nothing about whether you could accomplish the same result in a different way. The usefulness of contract tracing is not a conversation I wish to engage in.