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Racism and Meritocracy

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Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#71
post #55

This post has many empirical problems, but let's start by looking at the male/female deck by Terri Oda. The only data in the entire deck is on slide 21, and the caption reads: Two normal distributions that are 0.15 standard deviations apart (i.e d=0.15. This is the approximate magnitude of the gender difference in mathematics performance, averaging across all samples.) In other words, what is plotted there is actuall…

Mathematical achievement doesn't fit a gaussian, and neither do the gendered groups of your conception. And if mathematical ability were distributed as a Gaussian, and genetic, women couldn't be ascending so rapidly.

See for example Lisa Sauermann, the all time best performer in the international math olympiad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Sauermann

As I wrote four years ago:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=65494

The thing is that intelligence isn't some kind of nice, statistically normed quantity. There's more to most variables than a mean and a standard deviation -- so I don't know why people seem to always think that you can restrict a discussion of intelligence to such concepts.

...

But intelligence isn't a gene. Researchers have, since the time of Galton, tried to find a simple, biological basis for genius. You know, memory capacity, reaction times, brain size, brain structure convolution, etc. They haven't found anything -- literally everything has turned out to be a false start, even brain size, which, has been shown, within families does not even predict g. In the mid ranges, there are greater standard deviations, yes. But every single normed test is normed on a sample on the order of 1000. They're designed for regular people. The designer of the Weschler has adamantly opposed the use of IQ tests for anything other than clinical settings, for this reason. It's just no good at drawing conclusions on the extremes of ability. A better guide might be actual performance. The IOI this year had more girls than ever before -- 11. That's nearly 300% more than last year, where they had 4, and one medal. They are: Emina Bukva (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Constanza Contreras (Chile) Anna Currel (Spain) Romina Huenchunao (Chile) Vaiva Imbrasaite (Lithuania) Taksapaun Kittiakrastien (Thailand) [Silver] Sepideh Mahabadi (Iran) [Gold!] Radwa Metwali (Egypt) Katie O'Mahony (Ireland) Phitchaya Phothilimthana (Thailand) [Silver] Ye Wang (USA) [Silver] Sepideh Mahabadi had one of the best performances of anyone. If you're familiar with IOI scoring, only the top 1/12 are to get golds, and 2/12 to get silvers, thus 1 gold and 3 silvers out of 11 implies that they did at least as good as the boys, and in fact somewhat better. Were the 'standard deviation' explanation correct they should have, instead, had 0.4 girls earning maybe 0.01 medals. It just doesn't work.

And three years ago:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=244449

Why is it sexist to say we show up more frequently in science departments because we have also been designed by evolution to be better at math?

Because compared with bench-pressing, claims of mathematically ability being better in men (and partially ordered, to boot) is seriously jumping the gun. We know what's involved in a bench press. We understand how testosterone stimulates the production of muscle. We are nowhere close with mathematical ability. We have no theory of mathematically ability -- we really don't know what it means, or if the simplest metrics are even useful for higher level math. We have no experimental results, because we have no controlled variables. We have few pieces of data, none of which are conclusively disentangled from cultural and historical influence. In the past two decades, the number of women scoring highly on the IMO, the IOI, the Putnam, and SMPY has gone up by roughly a factor of six. Doubtful that the number of girls with 'math talent genes' have sextupled that quickly. Isn't this evidence that we should hold off on our conclusions?

And four years ago:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=65524

"Brain size does not predict general cognitive ability within families" http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/9/4932 You can't discount that IOI statistic becuase it's an outlier. Every single participant at the IOI is an outlier in cognitive ability. Do you know about the theory of outliers? There's this thing called the central limit theorem. It says that if you have a lot of small independent variables, randomly assigned some value, then the mean of all these variables (or, by the same token, the sum of the variables) is distributed approximately normally. But suppose the variables are not small, or they're not independent. Then the central limit theorem doesn't hold, and what you have, almost all of the time, is an outlier -- that's why there are often many more outliers than you'd predict in a given population, using a small sample. Now, I'm not saying that g is zero. I said that psychometrics is a non-science, in the same sense that a lot of the social sciences are non-sciences (you can find papers which try to show a causal effect of insurance regulation on premium prices, ignoring profits entirely, for example). The fact that g is non-zero can be readily explained by the following simple observation -- most academic subtests, including IQ's, rely on skills that are either practiced as a group, or on skills that are shared between subtests. One example is focus, in general. Another is visualisation. Another is working memory. And so on and so on. Many of these skills are also practiced in situations, like school, where if one does well in one area, they do well in another. If you're the teacher's pet, you get more attention. If you're known as the bad kid, you're immediately discounted (and I've been on both sides). If you're poisoned against a learning environment, you just won't put any effort in. So it's no mystery to me that g is non-zero. The point is that the field of psychometrics is totally absent of content. There's no objective test for the validity of a test, for example -- the best they have is g-loading. Over the years, this means that tests have become higher and higher g-loaded. Now this could mean that the tests are getting better, or it could be that the subtests only look different, they are becoming more similar in content. I've been studying these tests, the actual tests, since I was twelve. It didn't take long before I figured out how poor they were at answering research questions, or questions of individual ability. If you get the chance, try to look up the history of the Stanford-Binet, or Terman's kids, or actually take a look at the scoring method behind most of these things. They're totally full of crap...

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#72
post #65

I am racist. And sexist. I subconsciously attribute certain qualities to men and women, and to various ethnicities. Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too. When I get on the phone with technical support and hear a thick East Asian accent, the first thing that happens is I grit my teeth.…

"Courageously" admitting something doesn't make it OK, simply based on the speculative assertion that a lot of people do the same. We may be living in a biased society, but admitting this doesn't make it excusable.

Did you miss the very last line of his comment?

"Knowing that they exist can help us make better decisions."

He's making this admission with the expressed desire of changing, not trying to justify or excuse it.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is an error in logic here (and I think Ries touched on it): a bias in the input of a filter does not preclude a bias in the filter itself. A bias in the input may exist because of a bias -- perceived or actual -- in the filter.

Sure, that's possible, but first we have to look at the skewed input before we look at any problems with higher selection processes. Hell, I even see this working shlubbo programming jobs here in Minneapolis - there simply are not many female programmers, or African-American programmers. Until we look at problems in K-12 and college, I don't see that it's meaningful to talk about racism and sexism in the valley.

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm still thinking about it. It smells like this approach presupposes that the problem of diversity in tech -- assuming that such a problem exists, which isn't universally agreed-upon -- is rooted in problems in education.

Again, I think one of the points of the article is that post-input selection problems can cause selection problems in the input.

As a thought experiment, if we imagine a situation in which a particular minority were to believe that, even if they followed the rules of their majority peers, they would still be selected against, then we might also imagine that as a consequence they would actually select against themselves.

(For example: I'm terrible at casual party-like get-togethers, so I tend not to go to them, which in turn prevents me from getting any better at them; I'm selecting against myself in this situation because of an expected problem. Likewise, if I were a woman and an entrepreneur, I might not attend certain events because I believed in advance that I wouldn't do well there.)

I'm not at all arguing that this is actually the case. But, I don't think that limiting ourselves to looking at problems in education is taking a complete enough approach to the overall problem.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And clearly, many african-americans and many women were not doing the steps needed to be talented enough to be able to make it big now. The most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them. You use words like "clearly" and "probably" but provide neither explanation nor evidence to back up your suppositions. Clearly, you expect your audience thinks exactly the way you do and w…

The "clearly" comes out of logic. If you assume that my "result" statement is correct, then the reason would also have to be correct. Do you think African American students, 15 years ago, were spending time studying how to use computers? I think it's rather likely because: - I've never heard of this - Such playing-with-computers is something that was confined to the somewhat richer and educated people in American soc…

>Such playing-with-computers is something that was confined to the somewhat richer and educated people in American society, which the african-americans were not, 15 years ago.

That explains the "many african-americans and many women were not doing the steps needed to be talented enough to be able to make it big now" part of your sentence. It does not explain the "the most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them" part of your sentence. Hence the request from raganwald and myself for a source to back this up.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#75
post #55

This post has many empirical problems, but let's start by looking at the male/female deck by Terri Oda. The only data in the entire deck is on slide 21, and the caption reads: Two normal distributions that are 0.15 standard deviations apart (i.e d=0.15. This is the approximate magnitude of the gender difference in mathematics performance, averaging across all samples.) In other words, what is plotted there is actuall…

Mathematical achievement doesn't fit a gaussian, and neither do the gendered groups of your conception. And if mathematical ability were distributed as a Gaussian, and genetic, women couldn't be ascending so rapidly. See for example Lisa Sauermann, the all time best performer in the international math olympiad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Sauermann As I wrote four years ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=…

Woah EPIC post, would be great if you added a TLDR comment upfront for skimming.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#76
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of investment groups which have been, ahem, inspired by the YC model. I'm totally agnostic on what degree of success any particular one or the field in general will have, but in 2022, we'll have trivially checkable empirical evidence on whether there needed to be more seed stage funding than YC was doing for itself. long odds of being successful Do you realize that, if you believe the odds are long ag…

I realize that that is the conclusion if you believe that it is inevitable that a free market will capitalize on every opportunity . I do not believe that this is so. I mentioned a few of the things which might prolong or even prevent such a thing from being successful even if there is sufficient opportunity for it. I might be willing to change my position if there were a much greater number of people with the resour…

So I think we're coming at this in two different ways. It is possible that we're just philosophically irreconcilable on that.

I am skeptical, but willing to be convinced by evidence, that access to capital contributes more to success of software companies than talent. If, hypothetically, companies fail because of lacking access to capital but do not fail because of lacking access to talent, and the market selected for people who were fundable instead of people who were talented, I would not come to the conclusion that the free market has failed. I would come to the conclusion that the free market had allocated resources correctly to capital and away from talent (in the dystopian world where talent, apparently, doesn't really matter).

If you're betting that access to capital and social networks and execution risk trump diversity in investment outcomes, you're betting that access to capital and social networks and execution risk matter more than diversity.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#77
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it can be both a bias and a fact. I did not go so far as to say that biases have no basis in fact, because that's an argument I'm neither prepared to make, nor want to make. I was making the point that biases exist.

Some have coined the term "hatefacts" for these biased facts.

[deleted]

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#78
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the article was a solidly not-stupid approach to the issue of race; I would like to see more discussion like it. I don't think capitalism can solve all ills; even if there is an opportunity for, say, seed-stage investment for startups run by tech "minorities", there is a whole litany of necessities and problems which give it long odds of being successful. You have to find individuals who are both interested i…

There are a lot of investment groups which have been, ahem, inspired by the YC model. I'm totally agnostic on what degree of success any particular one or the field in general will have, but in 2022, we'll have trivially checkable empirical evidence on whether there needed to be more seed stage funding than YC was doing for itself. long odds of being successful Do you realize that, if you believe the odds are long ag…

Do you realize that, if you believe the odds are long against this strategy succeeding, you have to be taking the position that this isn't a serious problem in the status quo? And vice versa? I mean, you're not going to give long odds against gravity or penicillin winning, right? They're going to ROFLstomp the alternatives. If diversity is not ROFLstomping the alternatives, then we did not have a diversity problem.

Unfortunately, that is the crux of the problem. In the short-term diversity isn't really that important to the "majority". And diversity isn't going to ROFLstomp the alternatives. It isn't like there are a group of Blacks that are all Mark Zuckerbergs and Steve Jobs. White males are long shots for the most part as are Blacks.

The reason why diversity matters is more for society in the long-run. You want everyone to maximize their potential. And lastly, I think most people want others to have a fair shot at their full potential. People like to at least think they are fair.

So the diversity problem isn't about short-term ROI, but rather long-term maximization of human potential. Of course this is almost the total opposite of the argument proposed in the article.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#79

One thing that bothered me about this article was the way it called out YC's selection process implying it is part of the problem. Actually the Valley has never been more accessible to 'outsiders' because of the rise of YC, AngelList, and many more angel investors.

I couldn't agree more. My intention wasn't to call out YC as part of the problem, but simply to suggest a specific place where I think YC (and the Valley ecosystem in general) could be improved.

In fact, the only reason I think this argument has any chance of having an impact is that I think SV is one of the most meritocratic places in the world.

I'm pointing out a bug that we could easily fix if we want to.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#80

I am racist. And sexist. I subconsciously attribute certain qualities to men and women, and to various ethnicities. Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too. When I get on the phone with technical support and hear a thick East Asian accent, the first thing that happens is I grit my teeth.…

Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too. That's not a bias, it's simple fact. Asians have SAT math scores 72 points higher than average, TIMSS scores 74 points higher than average, and are disproportionately represented in professions requiring significant mathematical background. http://…

And worldwide Asians are underrepresented as Field's medalists. And Turning Award winners. And Nobel prizes in math intesive fields like Econ and Physics.
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