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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#71

Post by wizofaus »

Ekaros wrote: post #68
wizofaus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness is definitely not an all-or-nothing thing, though I suspect we only typically have access to very narrow band of potential levels of awareness (and can't control it "at will" anyway). But obviously there are some thresholds over which memories are simply not preserved in a sufficiently cohesive form for us to have any sense of maintaining consciousness, and in fact the point at which our brain stops bei…

I'm not actually sure I would agree on not being able to store recallable memories being end of consciousness. Alzheimer and other medical conditions might very well result being unable to make new memories, but processing and reacting to stimuli based on old memories is still possible. Reasonably I think stop of consciousness is both not storing and not reacting to.

I'd say Alzheimer's is essentially the inability to lay down memories that can be recalled beyond a very short period of time (in extreme cases, seconds). But once your brain can no longer store ANY recallable memories, you're unconscious.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#72

Post by TuringTest »

lend000 wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Not taking one position or the other, but you can't make any conclusions about whether a separate consciousness exists from anesthesia, only that no memories were formed that can be accessed by that consciousness (even if it did experience qualia during that time).

If qualia are not remembered, do they make a sound?

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#73

Post by Ekaros »

wizofaus wrote: post #71
Ekaros wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not actually sure I would agree on not being able to store recallable memories being end of consciousness. Alzheimer and other medical conditions might very well result being unable to make new memories, but processing and reacting to stimuli based on old memories is still possible. Reasonably I think stop of consciousness is both not storing and not reacting to.

I'd say Alzheimer's is essentially the inability to lay down memories that can be recalled beyond a very short period of time (in extreme cases, seconds). But once your brain can no longer store ANY recallable memories, you're unconscious.

Can you react to stimuli without being able to store any recallable memories? At least somewhat more complex stimuli than pain or bright light.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#74

Post by pmapcat » 

  I mean we can observe finite mapping of the mathematical
  world onto physical universe. Which in itself is a wonder,
  because it exists. I find no reason for it to be so, 
  otherwise that it is related through common substance. 
  
  Even Reals are not real.
  
  Math is mental. Math objects are infinitely larger
  than physical world.
  
  Material universe is a special case of mathematical world.
  because you can construct infinite physical worlds if you 
  choose different relations from the infinite.  
  
  You can observe infinite worlds through consciousness. 
  Only one of them is physical. 
  
  If there is a hypothetical one to one mapping of 
  physical world onto a set of models then consciousness 
  is larger than the physical universe. 
  
  The question is whether that is true. 
  How much of the physical universe is 
  unknowable in principle.
  
  If the material world > consciousness, then there 
  exist things that are possible to observe, but 
  impossible to know. 
  
  And the converse, if consciousness > material world
  then there exist things that are impossible to observe, 
  but possible to imagine.
  
  I mean there is physical brain, neurons, observations 
  and other stuff which is strongly relating self body 
  and consciousness. But maybe it is so by design? 
  
  The question is what is the difference 
  between me being a brain and me imagining 
  being a brain.   
  
  That is my take into it as I am approaching 30. We will
  see my opinion later in life.
edit, formatting

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#75

Post by mathieuh »

zasdffaa wrote: post #14
mathieuh wrote: post #7

I've overdosed on heroin before and when I woke up in hospital I had no feeling that time had passed, it was like I time travelled to a point in the future without experiencing the intervening points. Is it the same under anaesthesia or is it more like being asleep in that when you wake up and come to your senses again you are aware of it being later? Because my overdose felt like I just didn't exist for a couple of…

OT: what's heroin like (when used not to excess)? I have some drug experience but none with H or opiates in general, and admittedly no plans to, but I'd like to know.

When not used to excess it's kind of shit honestly. When I was still relatively new to being clean I had a couple of relapses and each time I would just spend the whole time puking and scratching myself raw, and once I'd run out again I wouldn't have much desire to buy more. You need to already have a decent opioid tolerance before it becomes more enjoyable.

I mean don't get me wrong it feels good, but there's no way you're able to function at all

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#76

Post by MomoXenosaga »

TuringTest wrote: post #72
lend000 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not taking one position or the other, but you can't make any conclusions about whether a separate consciousness exists from anesthesia, only that no memories were formed that can be accessed by that consciousness (even if it did experience qualia during that time).

If qualia are not remembered, do they make a sound?

Consciousness trying to make up reasons why consciousness can survive death. That's what religion is all about.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#77

Post by zasdffaa »

mathieuh wrote: post #75
zasdffaa wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OT: what's heroin like (when used not to excess)? I have some drug experience but none with H or opiates in general, and admittedly no plans to, but I'd like to know.

When not used to excess it's kind of shit honestly. When I was still relatively new to being clean I had a couple of relapses and each time I would just spend the whole time puking and scratching myself raw, and once I'd run out again I wouldn't have much desire to buy more. You need to already have a decent opioid tolerance before it becomes more enjoyable. I mean don't get me wrong it feels good, but there's no way…

Very useful, thanks!

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#78

Post by aamargulies »

Roger Penrose talked about this with Lex Fridman. The anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff is looking into how anesthesia affects microtubules and the implications for consciousness. Penrose is intrigued by the symmetry of microtubules and the possibility for this symmetry to enable quantum coherence to be accessible biologically. His larger point is that consciousness is not a computation.

https://youtu.be/hXgqik6HXc0

Relevant part starts around 3:30.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#79

Post by dwd »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

I would highly recommend listening to Anil Seth or reading his book "Being You". He is also highly critical of dualism and panpsychism, and justifiably so.

As one of the leading researchers on consciousness, I'm surprised he's not mentioned at all in this. He is extremely fascinated by how consciousness goes away under anesthesia.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#80

Post by feet »

xenadu02 wrote: post #55
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

You're close to the fundamental problem here but don't go far enough. All one needs to do is look at Oliver Sack's books to understand that either of these must be true: 1. Consciousness is a physical system. This is the simplest explanation and accounts for all observed phenomenon. 2. Consciousness (or "soul") is metaphysical but is such a blank slate or so dependent on the physical state of the brain that we can ex…

Isn't there some rule that we should usually go with the simplest explanation that covers all bases?

Why even go beyond 1? It feels like people want there to be something more

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