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The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

theintercept.com

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Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#71

Post by pessimizer »

hereme888 wrote: post #5

So we have no idea what the reasons behind these operations are, and yet people criticize them? That's foolishness. Well, the replies and downvotes certainly augment the foolishness. Assuming operations in Africa are for keeping countries repressed rather than promoting freedom and justice for those who can't fight for themselves, etc. The US is not innocent, but through their actions and 100 years of selflessly poli…

> So we have no idea what the reasons behind these operations are, and yet people criticize them? That's foolishness.

It's unfair to criticize secret programs because we don't know enough about them?

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#72

Post by rayiner »

pessimizer wrote: post #68
giraffe_lady wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a question because it seems like you've already decided what it is.

Apparently history is anti-white rhetoric.

To hear white people tell history these days it certainly seems to be. Though ironically, in the process of doing that they center themselves in the narrative and reduce everyone else to mere foils to be juxtaposed against the moral failings of white people.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#73

Post by rayiner »

ahelwer wrote: post #47
rayiner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the term “global south” like the term “black and brown people?” A concept that lumps together huge swaths of the world’s population that have nothing to do with each other, and reduces them to subjects in a moralistic rant against Americans/Europeans/whites?

Broadly refers to countries with a history of being colonized rather than a history of being colonizers. There certainly was a racial aspect to colonialism, yes.

So England is part of the “global south” because it was colonized by the Romans? Is India part of the “global south” because it was colonized by Muslims, or only because it was colonized by the British? Is Thailand part of the “global south?”

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#74

Post by car_analogy »

DennisP wrote: post #67
pibechorro wrote: post #15

End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace.

What happens next is that history resumes and globalization ends, because it's the US that's been enforcing peaceful globalization since 1945. Borders are no longer sacrosanct, more countries fight each other, a traditional empire or two maybe get started again out of necessity, and countries dependent on imports for oil and food start having major problems. It works out ok for the US though. We get inflation and all…

> Borders are no longer sacrosanct

But this is already the case, due to the US-backed push for open borders/open societies, at home and abroad. Just yesterday there was a submission on using media manipulation to subvert politicians that want "sacrosanct borders": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31937756

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#75

Post by syspec »

rayiner wrote: post #72
pessimizer wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently history is anti-white rhetoric.

To hear white people tell history these days it certainly seems to be. Though ironically, in the process of doing that they center themselves in the narrative and reduce everyone else to mere foils to be juxtaposed against the moral failings of white people.

I don't agree with your views, but I do agree with this take.

I often hear people use the phrase: "especially effects under represented minorities", which robs those people of agency, portrays them ALL as being X (which is prejudice by definition).

Worst of all the phrase is trotted out like a weapon to accomplish some goal.

It's a shame because usually the people think they're helping

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#76

Post by Adraghast »

libertine wrote: post #59
de6u99er wrote: post #54

I am surprised that the article doesn't mention the current war in Ukraine.

Well it ain't a secret operation, maybe it's because of that. The support on Ukraine war is very public, and it's part of the war effort.

Providing arms, intelligence, and other forms of support is done in the public eye, yes. They’re more likely referring to the possible deployment of SOF personnel to Ukraine.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#77

Post by tablespoon »

car_analogy wrote: post #74
DennisP wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens next is that history resumes and globalization ends, because it's the US that's been enforcing peaceful globalization since 1945. Borders are no longer sacrosanct, more countries fight each other, a traditional empire or two maybe get started again out of necessity, and countries dependent on imports for oil and food start having major problems. It works out ok for the US though. We get inflation and all…

> Borders are no longer sacrosanct But this is already the case, due to the US-backed push for open borders/open societies, at home and abroad. Just yesterday there was a submission on using media manipulation to subvert politicians that want "sacrosanct borders": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31937756

>> Borders are no longer sacrosanct

> But this is already the case, due to the US-backed push for open borders/open societies, at home and abroad.

You misunderstand. He was talking about wars of territorial conquest (e.g. moving a border through military means).

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#78

Post by DennisP »

tablespoon wrote: post #77
car_analogy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Borders are no longer sacrosanct But this is already the case, due to the US-backed push for open borders/open societies, at home and abroad. Just yesterday there was a submission on using media manipulation to subvert politicians that want "sacrosanct borders": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31937756

>> Borders are no longer sacrosanct > But this is already the case, due to the US-backed push for open borders/open societies, at home and abroad. You misunderstand. He was talking about wars of territorial conquest (e.g. moving a border through military means).

Yes, thank you.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#79

Post by CHY872 »

rayiner wrote: post #30
tablespoon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace. ...let the Russian flag fly over the Baltics.

Conquest for land happens. California would still be part of Mexico if we hadn’t done the same thing. Why is it our job to stop to history?

Generally, the result of US diplomacy and projection of power over the last 50-75 years has been hugely beneficial and highly cost effective for the US. Why does anyone invest in anything? Because they want to see a return. The US has seen this in spades, as have (in general) its allies.

You can see this right now in Ukraine. The US and its allies are busy donating/selling all of their soon-to-expire weapons, their older model (but still good) jets, their brand new weapons. Who benefits from this? Ukraine, now. But also the weapon manufacturers, who represent a non-trivial proportion of the US economy. If Ukraine wins the war, it will be paying off its debts to the US for a century, with interest.

An economic example might be the sanctions it placed on Russia along with its allies. Russia is currently forecasted to see a 20% drop in its GDP this year, probably the single biggest effect of the war (compare to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria effects on the US). Lots of the sanctioning can only be done because most of the global economy runs on the US dollar, as opposed to the yuan, yen, pound, euro, because the Russian loans are dollar denominated. If someone's putting the pressure on the US in some way, its various investments let it wield some massive clubs.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#80

Post by googlryas »

pessimizer wrote: post #71
hereme888 wrote: post #5

So we have no idea what the reasons behind these operations are, and yet people criticize them? That's foolishness. Well, the replies and downvotes certainly augment the foolishness. Assuming operations in Africa are for keeping countries repressed rather than promoting freedom and justice for those who can't fight for themselves, etc. The US is not innocent, but through their actions and 100 years of selflessly poli…

> So we have no idea what the reasons behind these operations are, and yet people criticize them? That's foolishness. It's unfair to criticize secret programs because we don't know enough about them?

It's not unfair, but it just puts the critizers in an impossible epistemological landscape, where the main differentiator between the critizers and the critizees is that the critizers simply know far less relevant detail than the critizees.
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