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Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

talesoftimesforgotten.com

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Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#71
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bold claim, do you have a source to back that up?

No OP and I don't know about 1988, but lead pipes are still common in the US, either many states have them or all states do. Flint, MI has a plan to eliminate them this year, maybe. https://www.nrdc.org/lead-pipes-widespread-used-every-state

Lead pipes are overblown as a risk. The bigger issue is putting criminally incompetent people in charge of water.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#73
Here is a counter-point[1] which finds high levels of lead toxicity in regular citizens. While this article seems to mostly be reasoning based on a literature review, the counterpoint uses analysis of roman skeletons.

[1]: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/londinium-romans-blood-l...

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#74
post #27
post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

It means "you should check Wikipedia." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empi...

Ok

> the fall of Rome was the loss of central political control in the Western Roman Empire, a process in which the Empire failed to enforce its rule, and its vast territory was divided into several successor polities.

So it’s exactly what I said it was.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#75

Quoted post unavailable.

The Roman empire had long assimilated other cultures into a pan Roman identity. This is not a compelling reason, either. Contemporary explanations typically point to two main causes:

* The split between the Eastern and western Roman empire caused the comparatively less wealthy Western empire to weaken considerably. Remember, the Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse and lasted well into the medieval era.

* Lower crop yields due to changing climate patterns. Immigration is a symptom of this, lower yields prompting societies to migrate towards more productive areas.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#76
post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

Lots of people died and disappeared, whole cities were abandoned, those that weren’t often had a tenth of their previous populations, people receded to subsistence agriculture, and literacy went to almost zero. If you took an interest in a subject and read a few books, you could be the worlds foremost expert on it. This was most prevalent in the west. Rome was just a few sparks away from triggering an industrial revo…

> Rome was just a few sparks away from triggering an industrial revolution a thousand years early

That’s a pretty amazing idea.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#77
post #4
post #3

One thing I really got out of the History of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan is if anyone tells you there was ONE cause of the fall of Rome, they're full of crap.

What I find recently is that the folks suggesting Rome fell because of ONE cause, that one cause tends to be some political fringe talking point. So there's some other clues in there.

[deleted]

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#78
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a great history teacher in school who would use every opportunity (and there were many, obviously) to drive home this point. Not just Rome: most, if not all, major historical events and developments are driven by multiple causes.

As one of the greatest history channels on Youtube once said: "History isn't hapoening in a vaccuum". And they are right.

The first moon orbiting of a human happened in a vacuum. I hope more history happens in a vacuum.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#79
post #15

So often any of these single causal theories forget to look at timespan. Which was either decades or centuries... If system survived previously with mostly same things in place there is really no reason why such thing as lead pipes would be the cause of downfall part. By any reasonable conclusion the culprit in such case should be some disruptive innovation. In the end gradual natural degradation of system is much mo…

This line of publishing, much like nutritional science, is great for scientists. You can fudge data into flip flopping conclusions every couple of years. Infinite papers = tenure.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#80
post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

Bret Devereaux recently went into a lot of detail on this in his blog [0]. Short answer: some things stayed the same (lots of sub-communities didn't see much difference), other things distinctly got worse (lots of people died). The process was also different in different areas. In general, in Western Europe, a lot of regions went from an urban-oriented centralized economy to a more decentralized one, causing big problems for the cities that no longer had the administrative prowess to support themselves.

[0] https://acoup.blog/2022/01/14/collections-rome-decline-and-f...

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