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Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

talesoftimesforgotten.com

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Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#61

Post by johnwalkr »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #14
dralley wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you really want to boil it down to a single reason, the best candidate would be "becoming militarily dependent on hired mercenaries and then not paying them" rather than something more interesting

I can see that happening. Thinking about Canada. The other day I calculated it would take 25 hours of work for the minimum wage worker to afford a weekend camping. And I think that's a pretty good indication we're pretty close collapse. Workers not being paid enough, and out of control inflation is how the soviet system collapsed.

That’s actually a really interesting metric. Cost of living has really shot up in Canada while wages have stagnated. Everyone knows that housing has increased dramatically. This leads to less disposable income obviously. I’m 40 and grew up in Edmonton. Once or twice a year, as a kid and into my late 20s, my family and and/or I did a hotel type vacation in Banff or Jasper once a year, which seemed expensive at the time, and multiple times camping in the Rockies per year, which basically seemed free. My slightly more wealthy friends’ parents had a cabin and boat.

Now if I were to live in Edmonton again, I could probably still camp as if it were free but I appreciate your assessment that a minimum wage worked could not. Because I certainly could as a minimum wage worker back in the day. And I probably would never justify a domestic hotel type weekend or week long trip within Canada.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#62

Post by krylon »

comrh wrote: post #3

One thing I really got out of the History of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan is if anyone tells you there was ONE cause of the fall of Rome, they're full of crap.

I had a great history teacher in school who would use every opportunity (and there were many, obviously) to drive home this point. Not just Rome: most, if not all, major historical events and developments are driven by multiple causes.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#63

Post by LocalPCGuy »

hengri wrote: post #26
dukeofdoom wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that happening. Thinking about Canada. The other day I calculated it would take 25 hours of work for the minimum wage worker to afford a weekend camping. And I think that's a pretty good indication we're pretty close collapse. Workers not being paid enough, and out of control inflation is how the soviet system collapsed.

Do you think that average people throughout history had the means of going on weekend camping trips.

It's more just what they had to do anytime they traveled longer than a day's distance. I'm sure that happened for pleasure, but a trip specifically to camp seems like something that is more relegated to the modern age where you can get to a destination easily without having to just camp along the way.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#64

Post by hef19898 »

varjag wrote: post #39

It is less widely known that the fall of Soviet Union was caused by widespread use of asbestos in roof shingles.

But only if combined with lack of those on the roof of Chernobyls turbine hall. Those are directly related, everybody knows this.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#65

Post by hef19898 »

krylon wrote: post #62
comrh wrote: post #3

One thing I really got out of the History of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan is if anyone tells you there was ONE cause of the fall of Rome, they're full of crap.

I had a great history teacher in school who would use every opportunity (and there were many, obviously) to drive home this point. Not just Rome: most, if not all, major historical events and developments are driven by multiple causes.

As one of the greatest history channels on Youtube once said: "History isn't hapoening in a vaccuum". And they are right.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#66

Post by weaksauce »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #48
InCityDreams wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what/ divided how? Purchasing a tent, utensils, backpack etc ie starting from scratch, or assuming everything already paid for and just 'real costs' ie food, tent-place (ground rent?)? Decathlon.fr or .co.uk prices can be pretty cheap, but I'm not sure where the costs start.

Based on Canadian Prices, a working guy would spend. And not even going very far from home. Gas $100 Beer $50 Cigs $15 Ontario Park Campsite $59/night x 2 = $120 Firewood 2 x $15 = $30 Some basic sausages and food = $50 Total $375 Min Wage $15/hour. Hours of work = 25 hours Actually it would take more than 25 hours, because most likely that person does not live with Grandma and has shelter / food expenses. So might n…

this is for how many people? because camping trip fees are split usually. i assume 50 dollars in beer is not for one person in a weekend... when I was there right before the pandemic the beer didn't cost anywhere near that.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#67

Post by dang »

drewcoo wrote: post #27
dqpb wrote: post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

It means "you should check Wikipedia." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empi...

That's pretty good snark, but please don't be snarky on HN - it's a kind of collective poisoning in its own right.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#68

Post by Out_of_Characte »

hengri wrote: post #26
dukeofdoom wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that happening. Thinking about Canada. The other day I calculated it would take 25 hours of work for the minimum wage worker to afford a weekend camping. And I think that's a pretty good indication we're pretty close collapse. Workers not being paid enough, and out of control inflation is how the soviet system collapsed.

Do you think that average people throughout history had the means of going on weekend camping trips.

The average person throughout history did not have a refrigerator or global trade. Therefore any decline in todays society is moot.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#69

Post by londons_explore »

bonzini wrote: post #53
WanderPanda wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is that this point of view is just not accepted to be discussed e.g. in case of (covid) vaccines or other large scale innovations. I'm not a fan of intelligence measuring the potential of a society but just to give an idea of the non-linearities that can be in play here: A reduction of just 3 IQ points on average leads to a 10 fold decrease in people of IQs around 140.

I'll bite, what the heck do COVID vaccines have to do with it?

Many vaccines have some of the side effects of infection.

One such side effect (of both vaccine and disease) is minor neurological impairment. ie. you might not be able to remember where you parked your car last tuesday afterwards.

The side effects are typically so minor and/or rare that the risk-benefit analysis strongly favours taking the vaccine over risking getting the infection.

It's a controversial topic because humans are bad at judging small risks, and therefore there are groups of people 'scared' of the side effects of the vaccine and unconvinced by experts saying the risk-benefit is worth it. Some experts believe it is better to say "it is safe" rather than try to explain that there are in fact risks, but they're risks worth taking.

Note: The above isn't covid specific - the same could be said of nearly any disease and vaccine.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#70

Post by dukeofdoom »

weaksauce wrote: post #66
dukeofdoom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on Canadian Prices, a working guy would spend. And not even going very far from home. Gas $100 Beer $50 Cigs $15 Ontario Park Campsite $59/night x 2 = $120 Firewood 2 x $15 = $30 Some basic sausages and food = $50 Total $375 Min Wage $15/hour. Hours of work = 25 hours Actually it would take more than 25 hours, because most likely that person does not live with Grandma and has shelter / food expenses. So might n…

this is for how many people? because camping trip fees are split usually. i assume 50 dollars in beer is not for one person in a weekend... when I was there right before the pandemic the beer didn't cost anywhere near that.

One guy definitely can drink a case over a weekend. I dont think you hanged out with many working people. I think most would not bring a 12 pack, but a full case. But even if they did. Last I rember there was $10 covinince charge for getting the campsite tickets online, which you would want to do. Because you will not drive out there without knowing you have a spot if you saved up for a camping trip.
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