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Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

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Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#71

Post by jeeeb »

defaultname wrote: post #6
refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

"Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines" Canada was one of the first countries to pre-order vaccines, signing massive agreements with just about every candidate maker. I'm aware of literally a single deal happening with another country prior to Canada's orders. What thwarted Canada's efforts was that the US defacto nationalized the medical establishment in that country, while Cana…

Not to hijack this too much but the Australian vaccine rollout has been widely panned but much of the problems come down to a choice to rely on domestically manufactured AZ vaccines.

In a different timeline if the AZ vaccine hadn’t been associated with rare blood clotting, if Pfizer/Moderna hasn’t been able to scale manufacturing as well that strategy would be looking very good.

It’s interesting to think that Canada and other nations that instead depended on international supply chains ultimately did much better though.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#72

Post by azernik »

pastage wrote: post #65
refurb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel beat the US in vaccination rate. ”Israel cast a wide net last year when trying to secure vaccine doses at the height of the pandemic and pre-ordered from a number of companies.” By April of 2021 it was already giving excess doses away. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/with-enough-suppli...

Yes they acted faster with more political capital at stake AFAIK, in the end the important part is how free trade countries reacted to the pandemic. There is a lot to say about acting in a way that hinders pandemic compared to making nations feel safe.

Israel is a "free trade country".

If you were a rich nation, it was eminently possibly to get early delivery dates written into your contracts. Canada decided not to for some reason (cost?) and in actual fact deeply regretted it.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#73

Post by azernik »

abirkill wrote: post #12
refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

Out of the three vaccines in use in both Canada and Europe, it appears that Canada entered agreements as follows: Moderna: August 5th, 2020 [1] Pfizer: August 5th, 2020 [1] AstraZeneca: September 25th, 2020 [2] Europe entered agreements as follows: Moderna: November 25th, 2020 [3] Pfizer: November 11th, 2020 [4] AstraZeneca: August 27th, 2020 [5] I couldn't immediately find data on the quantities ordered, but this do…

Yeah, not slow in placing orders; the problem was that they didn't prioritize guaranteed delivery dates in contracts like the EU and US and Israel

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#74

Post by azernik »

HeavenFox wrote: post #48
refurb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did Israel gets enough vaccine by April then? Canada had barely started receiving doses then? I see an awful lot of whitewashing to cover mistakes going on.

a) Canada has 4x the population of Israel b) Israel agreed to the extraordinary term of sharing their data with Pfizer, in exchange for getting doses early, something Canada almost surely won't be willing to do c) The Israeli PM Netanyahu was facing significant electoral challenges and desperately needed a win, so there was a lot of political will

I wouldn't place too much weight on C. Even under the new Bennett-Lapid government, the country has been willing to go all out on booster shots.

There's just a lot of willingness to go for "good enough" solutions in emergency situations, and forget the rules for the duration.

Civil defense culture also helps, in that it's trained people to reason about countermeasures that are not 100% ("hermetic" in the local lingo) - you still get in the stairwell to protect from shrapnel, even if a direct hit will kill you anyway. People don't have the gut reaction of betrayal when a 90% countermeasure fails sometimes.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#75

Post by bserge »

refurb wrote: post #39
Causality1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it luck? They all result in exposing the body to the exact same spike protein. We would have to be dangerously wrong about what the vaccines do for them to not work fine together.

It’s not the exact same spike protein.

Even better? Immune system learns of two (slightly) different ones, making immunity more robust.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#76

Post by bserge »

skybrian wrote: post #9
refurb wrote: post #3

“Bold” strategy? Canada had no option if they wanted to vaccinate quickly. Unlike the US and Europe, Canada dragged its heels on pre-ordering vaccines. Once it was apparent they couldn’t control the case numbers without vaccines, they took what they could get, prioritized first doses then realized they had different vaccines delivered for 2nd doses. The fact the mixed vaccines gives good protection is more luck than…

Delaying the second dose would have saved lives in other countries too. Many countries were in a desperate situation, including the US. People were dying everywhere. But some countries were too inflexible to do the smart thing, so more people died.

People were dying in hospitals. Old people. Stop with the "durr, people are dying like flies" bs. Enough lives were ruined by that. The young will be paying for this crap for the foreseeable future.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#77

Post by xiphias2 »

ipaddr wrote: post #31
rubyist5eva wrote: post #24

Paid off in what exactly? Many of our provincial governments have implemented totalitarian measures despite an insanely high vaccination rate and low death rate - creating a medically segregated society. In one province, the government has given itself vast power to perform warrantless search, confiscate property and conscript any person to the cause of "managing the emergency". Our courts uphold the measures because…

The government's actions I can understand. The courts decisions based on 'unprecedence' events is troublesome. It creates a low barrier for the removal of any rights. An event will happen like this again.

Removal of rights is one thing that is debatable. Not giving them back when the emergency has been gone and in developed countries everybody who wanted to get vaccinated got it is clearly an overstep.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#78

Post by bserge »

Proven wrote: post #18
yelnatz wrote: post #16

I have mixed vaccinations since I'm in BC. Hopefully I get a third booster shot so I can be considered fully vaccinated in the states.

For now. Six months from now you'll need another booster.

It's gonna be an yearly thing, isn't it. Now with a digital pass so you need to get a paid vaccination or be restricted.

Bet my life that's what's gonna happen.

Re: Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-19 vaccines paid off

#80

Post by bserge »

roenxi wrote: post #15
klyrs wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is... Got any sources indicating that this is in the works?

They're setting up restrictions on public (and private) transport [0]. Work is being done to support using OHS as a lever to push vaccination [1] which is going to require centralised databases integrated into business processes. Toronto is setting up systems to verify that everyone is vaccinated at gatherings of 1,000+ people [2]. This is setting the infrastructure to implement a social credit system. It is a small…

No doubt it will be used for that. Covid gave governments the perfect excuse to test out restriction systems, and they work.
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