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Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

theguardian.com

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Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#71

Post by guru4consulting »

varelse wrote: post #60
AdamHominem wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that because they're within legal limits everything is A-OK (how are the limits set? Exhibit A: US drinking water pollutant limits, which were raised by Bush, not based on science) ...then launching into an ad hominem attack (either the pesticide amounts are safe or not, and it has nothing to do with who is asking "is this safe or not?") ...and jumping on the word "fear" (I say "I fear the gun you've…

We found out the hard way that you can have manganese sediment in your drinking water to the point that the water comes out brown and full of sand and it doesn't violate EPA regulations just their recommendations as it clogs all your plumbing fixtures and sets you up for a huge repair bill. And the water company is absolutely not responsible in any way.

Long ago, I had worked at EPA OPP division, the office of pesticide protection. In general, the regulations are not enough. I won't be able to share all the details, but I can say that these kinds of regulations sometime help the pesticide companies because they can legally do the illegal/unethical things.

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#72

Post by pvaldes »

Nicksil wrote: post #10

This article has so much misleading information. It's bonkers. >The official figures, analysed by Pesticide Action Network (PAN), found 122 different pesticides in the 12 most polluted products, which the charity calls the “dirty dozen”. Many of these are hazardous to human health; 61% are classified as highly hazardous pesticides (HHPs), a concept used by the UN to identify those substances most harmful to human hea…

> More of the chemical is required to achieve the desired output.

We need to take in mind what pesticides can be used also to produce less fruits. Pesticides are used to produce fruit that can be sold later. They are not necessarily linked with bigger harvests or more people feed.

Organic trees are able to produce massively without pesticides. Is a myth to say that they can't. Pesticides are just one tool in the box. Sometimes can be replaced simply with a brown paper bag.

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#73

Post by ceejayoz »

ekianjo wrote: post #62
argvargc wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when activists are scientists? Or what about when activists just pay attention to, read and understand science? That, in general, seems to be something rather common - emergent science is often what motivates activists, especially regarding safety. Actually, much science itself could be considered an ongoing process of a kind of "activism". As a sibling suggested, if something plausible and potentially harmful ha…

Nope dont mix Science and activism. Activism already has a set goal in mind. Science is about the method to reach the truth.

So, once you've reached the truth, like "climate change exists and will have various negative impacts", or "cigarettes are killing millions via cancer", what next?

Activism.

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#74

Post by Ekaros »

klyrs wrote: post #47
mensetmanusman wrote: post #19

Vertical farming is a solution, because it needs no pesticide being in a clean environment.

A friend of mine is a mycologist who studies fungi that grow in hydroponic greenhouses. I feel fairly safe saying that there's no such thing as a "clean" environment where anything is allowed to grow. In the best case: if it's clean but nutritious enough to support life, it's ripe for rapid colonization, and probably by something nasty. See also: biosphere experiments.

It is all good until it isn't and then it's massively expensive replacing or sterilising everything. I wonder how long realistically such level of cleanliness could on average be managed...

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#75

Post by lathyrus_long »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #49
Nicksil wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even if that is accurate(source?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming >quantity applied says nothing about the danger of the substance to humans. Quantity is the deciding factor when talking about toxicity to humans. If I've misunderstood your comment, please correct me.

Let’s just take one example: Sodium Bicarbonate, commonly known as Baking Soda works well as an efficient and cost effective fungicide and insecticide. It is actually registered with the EPA for use against certain plant fungi, powdery mildew. As a foliar spray used in the garden, it works wonders against fungus and bugs. There’s approximately no amount of sodium bicarbonate a person could reasonably ingest, in this…

The point is that if a product is twice as toxic to humans (or bees, or some other off-target species) but four times as toxic to the target pest, then the grower can use a quarter as much and the adverse impact is half. The relevant factor is that "therapeutic index", not toxicity per gram. By that standard some organic pesticides are better than the conventional average (e.g. azadirachtin), while others are worse (e.g. pyrethrin, or rotenone until it was banned).

Also, please don't take gardening advice from whatever website you're quoting. Sodium bicarbonate is not an effective insecticide. It's a marginally effective fungicide, though potassium bicarbonate would be less toxic to the plants. It's indeed pretty safe for humans, but the dose makes the poison even there and people have died from sodium bicarbonate overdose:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24734306.2020.1...

Unfortunately consumer gardening advice seems to be the domain of SEO specialists, not gardening specialists. University extension offices publish high-quality information with much less visibility, like:

https://www2.ipm.ucanr.edu/

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#76

Post by pvaldes »

nitrogen wrote: post #70
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example: EPA allows up to 15 µg/L of lead in drinking water. But lower levels are known to be dangerous: “Researchers now know, blood lead levels in children as low as five micrograms per deciliter — the Centers for Disease Control's "level of concern" — can lead to IQ deficits and increases in behavior problems like ADHD and conduct disorder. In adults, low-level exposure of 10 micrograms per deciliter can c…

You're comparing micrograms per liter in water to micrograms per deci liter in blood. Those are very different things.

bioaccumulation still can happen

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#77

Post by pvaldes »

sjtindell wrote: post #46
irthomasthomas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organic requires far more land, more water, more fertilizer and more energy than traditionaly farmed produce. In addition, the pesticed sprayed on crops do not penetrate the skin, and can be removed easy by rinsing the produce with water. But organic crops contain endogenous pesticides that cannot be washed off. Organic crops have been selectively bread over many years to be pest resistant, so that they could be grow…

I’m interested, can you share some source for this information?

Is probably saying that plants accumulate deterring substances against plagues, but this can be applied only in some cases

Such plants would assure to remove unpleasant substances in mature fruits, that are carefully designed to be eaten and to be as safe as possible.

Because different plant species compete for our attention. A plant that keeps putting harmful substances in its fruits is losing the game at middle term. We would just spread more seeds of its tastier competitors instead.

Tubers, bulbs or leaves would compete in a different league in that case

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#78

Post by contingencies »

Nicksil wrote: post #16
mandmandam wrote: post #13

So, 74 'Highly Hazardous Pesticides' from just 12 fruit. And likely with significant crossover, so you get double and triple-dosed. We know they're more toxic than your ex, and we know that there's people out there eating all these fruits and grains, like your mum. So why do we have debate on Round-ups' toxicity, or the 'economic benefits' of robot-powered, topsoil-eroding mono-cultures with no life in them? Why do w…

>We know organic perma-culture is better; for our bodies, for the soil, for the water and birds and bees. It's not better. Not a thing about it makes it better than conventional agriculture. Indeed one could make the argument it is worse than conventional agriculture for the items you listed because of the less effective methods used for "organic" pesticide, herbicide, and fertilizer application.

Permaculture is vague and hand-wavey but some core notions IMHO are thinking about the suitability of sites for agriculture of a given nature, whilst increasing biodiversity (including non-agricultural biodiversity) and reducing reliance on foreign inputs. These are good ideas that generally lead to higher outputs for a given land area and a stronger and more resilient ecosystem.

The catch, however, is labour. You need to be OK with harvesting by hand, eating in season, weeding by hand, etc. And even if you do the full "food forest" approach (note: 5 years to get started) you are going to need a lot of land to support relatively few people. It's primarily a lifestyle thing and not practical at societal scale.

That said, however, it is "better; for our bodies, for the soil, for the water and birds and bees". If you can't see this, you are perhaps insufficiently schooled in biology or being mislead through the use of a simplistic accounting approach typical of traditional agriculture, which externalises costs such as soil and water degradation and assigns no value to sustainability, freshness, local processing, genetic diversity and so-on.

(Full disclosure: I am no farmer, but I operate in the food area and have an interest in related systems. I am from Australia, the origin of permaculture.)

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#79

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

mandmandam wrote: post #68
Nicksil wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I mean, have you read anything about Roundup? If so, how can you say that? What specifically about Roundup are you referring to?

It's funny how often you show up in these threads Nicksil. Doing exactly this. For a software engineer you really seem to love defending pesticides, toxins, and mono-culture. Did an organic banana hurt you in some way?

If I believed that synthetic pesticides were harmless, I would probably have the same reaction. It’s ok to disagree. Personally I think his data is old and needs to be refreshed, but he does not see it that way.

Re: Traces of 122 different pesticides in 12 most polluted fruit and veg products

#80

Post by clairity »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #67
clairity wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yah, washing produce thoroughly also helps reduce (but doesn't eliminate) the extra chemicals. these couple precautions don't add too much mental/physical burden, imo.

From the article: “In terms of washing, it should remove some residues on the skin of a product (which will often be fungicides used to prevent rotting during storage and transportation). However, many modern pesticides are what are called ‘systemic’ which means that they are absorbed into the plant and distributed throughout its tissues, reaching any fruits or flowers. As a result, pesticide residues are often conta…

yah, that’s what i’d dimly remembered from when i looked into it last. it’s good to wash right before eating to get rid of other contaminants too, but it won’t remove all pesticides.
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