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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#71

Post by libertine »

belter wrote: post #68
libertine wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you getting that information, last time I checked Israel wasn't even in the top10 countries. Last week Portugal was number 2, and our cases have been dropping (which is a good sign for winter, though it's still early), also deaths and hospitalizations are nowhere near pre-vaccine numbers. We even had breakthrough cases in homes and care centers for the elderly, the majority seem to be mildly sympto…

Cases in Portugal are staying stable neither growing or diminishing. Looking at the curve for deaths there seems to be no correlation between deaths and the vaccination program. https://expresso.pt/coronavirus/2021-09-10-Covid-19.-O-oitav...

I can't even take your comment seriously.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#72

Post by Loveaway »

libertine wrote: post #60
Loveaway wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's shit. Just let people decide if they want to get the vaccination or not, and go on with life as normal. By now everyone can get it and be protected against the virus. You now have the immunity, so act like it! Stop dragging this out with requiring passports, masks, and whatnot. The "main concern" aren't tourists - tourists are the lifeblood of many places, and they should be welcomed. They come to you to see…

>Just let people decide if they want to get the vaccination or not, and go on with life as normal. Uh, where did I say that people shouldn't decide? Do you think we got +80% (87% if you factor in single doses), at gun point? If these passports had an influence on 5 percentual points I was being extremely generous. It's all about education, being informed, and a sense of duty. Probably the majority where fearful and a…

No the tourists have to put up with YOUR shit.

You are immune for fucks sake, how hard is it to actually be welcoming and say: It's ok for unvaccinated to enter a restaurant. We can live without implicitly checking everyone. We don't need to be like that and can act like normal decent humans again! Is that so hard?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#73

Post by sofixa »

tinus_hn wrote: post #8
sofixa wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, the number of vaccinations in France jumped remarkably after vaccine passports were made mandatory for cinemas, theatres, restaurants, etc. Considering that's the main goal of such policies, it seems like a success. And yes, the main point is to limit hospitalisations, because they're the main limiting factor ( at least in France, but probably in most other developed countries as well).

The same brand of ‘successes’ can be achieved by banning alcohol, tobacco, fast food or whatever vice you want.

Which is why, in absolutely the same vein, there are regulations to incite people to consume less of those things - e.g. little branding, serious warnings and graphic pictures of the long term damage on tobacco packaging; a ban on advertisement for tobacco products; serious warnings and limitations on the advertisements for alcohol products; warnings/good advice on food-related advertisements, etc. etc.

And all of those, including the vaccination passports, work and achieve their goals.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#75

Post by libertine »

Loveaway wrote: post #72
libertine wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just let people decide if they want to get the vaccination or not, and go on with life as normal. Uh, where did I say that people shouldn't decide? Do you think we got +80% (87% if you factor in single doses), at gun point? If these passports had an influence on 5 percentual points I was being extremely generous. It's all about education, being informed, and a sense of duty. Probably the majority where fearful and a…

No the tourists have to put up with YOUR shit. You are immune for fucks sake, how hard is it to actually be welcoming and say: It's ok for unvaccinated to enter a restaurant. We can live without implicitly checking everyone. We don't need to be like that and can act like normal decent humans again! Is that so hard?

>No the tourists have to put up with YOUR shit.

If by shit you mean the law, yes. That's what you have to do when you visit another country - even though a lot of people don't act like it truth be told.

Psst, come here, I'll drop you a quick tip: if they don't want to abide by the laws and mandates... don't come?

I don't get why you're ok to enforce your choice onto others, yet others can't enforce their choices onto you just because you're a tourist and we should welcome you.

>You are immune for fucks sake, how hard is it to actually be welcoming and say: It's ok for unvaccinated to enter a restaurant.

Uh, I don't think you can even enter the country without vaccine passport or valid PCR negative test. So you have that for starters, and if you choose to not be vaccinated what's the problem of taking another PCR test to go to restaurants?

>We can live without implicitly checking everyone. We don't need to be like that and can act like normal decent humans again! Is that so hard?

You just need to realize this is temporary, and the faster we go through this, the better - that was the whole game plan. Some people are opting to get infected without vaccines, that'll just delay things, but the end will come eventually.

Also we check people on regular basis: drivers licenses, IDs, tickets, etc.

Human decency is alive and well, and the fact that 87% of a country population, so far, adhered to a cause to protect themselves and the next person is the proof of that.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#76

Post by lampington »

thinkingemote wrote: post #49
cstross wrote: post #2

Note this is specific to England . Other countries in the UK are following their own course -- the Scottish government agreed in principle to introduce vaccine passports as of a week ago and will require them for entry to large venues from October 1st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-passports-requir... The NHS is a fully devolved issue, with separate NHS organizations in Wales, England, Northern Ireland,…

The purchase (and maybe rollout?) of the vaccines was done at the nation level rather than individual country.

Purchase was national, rollout per-country (though they did all do it pretty much the same way, with broadly similar results)

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#77

Post by ceesharp »

tinus_hn wrote: post #55
dgellow wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re clearly trolling here. The virus is an invisible agent spreading exponentially throughout society, putting the health system under a massive stress. That’s of course not what smoking, drinking, or over-eating is about…

No, these only put the health system under stress that we are used to. Remember that story about that guy in Mississippi who had trouble finding an ICU bed? If you look at the real data it turns out the vast majority of these beds are not in use by people with covid, but by people with other problems, like heart diseases. You know, the problems caused by that lifestyle that’s a-ok because we’re used to the problems i…

The difference is that in a very short period of time, numerous people can end up with the virus. The diseases you listed are distributed over the year. You don't see thousands of people getting a heart attack in a week in the same area. COVID puts the healthcare system at risk because it is a sudden surge of cases which ends up being overwhelming.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#78

Post by [deleted] »

jowsie wrote: post #53
Aeolun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chances of ending up dead from COVID is higher than the chance of dying from the vaccine for basically everyone right? Even if you’re in your 30’s and in perfect health. I absolutely agree that I’d much rather die from COVID than from the vaccine that is supposed to save me. But logically speaking, choosing to not take the vaccine doesn’t make any kind of sense. It’s like choosing to drive a car because you might…

>The chances of ending up dead from COVID is higher than the chance of dying from the vaccine for basically everyone right? Your chances of catching COVID aren't 100%, your chances of getting vaccinated are if you choose to do so. >It’s like choosing to drive a car because you might get hit by lightning if you take a walk. This argument also works in reverse. note: I'm double vaccinated and urge others to vaccinate i…

[deleted]

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#79

Post by Aeolun »

jowsie wrote: post #53
Aeolun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chances of ending up dead from COVID is higher than the chance of dying from the vaccine for basically everyone right? Even if you’re in your 30’s and in perfect health. I absolutely agree that I’d much rather die from COVID than from the vaccine that is supposed to save me. But logically speaking, choosing to not take the vaccine doesn’t make any kind of sense. It’s like choosing to drive a car because you might…

>The chances of ending up dead from COVID is higher than the chance of dying from the vaccine for basically everyone right? Your chances of catching COVID aren't 100%, your chances of getting vaccinated are if you choose to do so. >It’s like choosing to drive a car because you might get hit by lightning if you take a walk. This argument also works in reverse. note: I'm double vaccinated and urge others to vaccinate i…

> Your chances of catching COVID aren't 100%, your chances of getting vaccinated are if you choose to do so.

Well, yes. Obviously we’re taking that into account when determining absolute chance to die from a certain thing.

> This argument also works in reverse.

It’s like choosing to take a walk (and risk getting hit by lightning, very very low chance) because you might get in a car accident if you drive a car (relatively high chance)?

Not sure I follow. Inverting it makes it reasonable.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#80

Post by quotemstr »

MatteoFrigo wrote: post #61
azalemeth wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true. I personally find it mad that the UK is the nation with the highest covid infection rate in western europe, with ~30k new cases/day. Long covid is a real, debilitating condition and if anything is going to affect the young -- who are least vaccinated -- the most, thus creating a long-term disease burden and morbidity cost on both those individuals and the country as a whole. Ignoring the human cost…

You have the right to be unhappy. However, looking at the latest data from the UK at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... , it is not clear whether pushing for more vaccines will change the situation in any way that makes you happy. For example, that report says that 97% of the blood donors has some kind of antibodies, either from vaccine or previous infection. This number is almost 100% fo…

> pushing for more vaccines will change the situation in any way that makes you happy.

Given that even highly-vaccinated localities like Iceland (74% vaccinated) keep seeing waves of COVID cases and that COVID waves peak and decline without countries achieving the 90% rate vaccine proponents suggest as the threshold for herd immunity, we have to begin seriously questioning the public health case for mandatory universal vaccination. I wish more people would think critically about this issue instead of adopting an aggressive attitude of enforced conformity to an orthodoxy that doesn't appear to have all its facts lined up.

Looking objectively at experiences of countries around the world, one is forced to conclude that in the case of COVID, with the non-sterilizing vaccines currently available, vaccine passports are neither sufficient nor necessary for safeguarding public health and present serious challenges to privacy, civil liberties, and the rule of law.

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