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Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

reuters.com

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Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#71

Are CS applications surging too? What about other fields? It seems like more people are applying to college in general. Both my current and previous university, year after year keep having record numbers of applicants. And IIRC the CS program is getting more and more competitive. I'm not sure about liberal-arts though.

I wonder if it's people not taking a gap year, after all there isn't much point if you can't travel.

I think a lot of people took a gap year last year (who otherwise wouldn’t have). Why pay for college if you won’t get to actually go?

Many of those people are showing up now as applicants.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend was a lawyer for a few years. Shortly after we met she went to a bootcamp for coding, immediately got a new job, and now (a couple years later) makes something like 4x what she did as a lawyer. Of course she was doing contract work for a small local firm, but that was the best job she could find in the job market as it was.

I always wondered if studying law, also prepares your mind for coding. Lots of complex preconditions, trying to find clauses that catch all side effects - sounds familiar to me. So transitioning from law to coding is maybe "just" learning some programming language and technical details, but the mind is already somewhat prepared to the thinking?

Knowing how to code prepares you to deal with lawyers that say something is complex but then you verbally break it down into an if-elseif-else in 5m and they get flummoxed. And when you find a possible bug / loop-hole / fuzziness, they tell you they will need weeks to research it on your dime when it has all the complexity of a stack overflow post.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#73
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered if studying law, also prepares your mind for coding. Lots of complex preconditions, trying to find clauses that catch all side effects - sounds familiar to me. So transitioning from law to coding is maybe "just" learning some programming language and technical details, but the mind is already somewhat prepared to the thinking?

Knowing how to code prepares you to deal with lawyers that say something is complex but then you verbally break it down into an if-elseif-else in 5m and they get flummoxed. And when you find a possible bug / loop-hole / fuzziness, they tell you they will need weeks to research it on your dime when it has all the complexity of a stack overflow post.

Hm, maybe in some instances. But since laws involve humans and the laws are intentionally not always mathematically clear and depend on the current interpretations of the various courts, I would be careful to generalize here.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#74
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered if studying law, also prepares your mind for coding. Lots of complex preconditions, trying to find clauses that catch all side effects - sounds familiar to me. So transitioning from law to coding is maybe "just" learning some programming language and technical details, but the mind is already somewhat prepared to the thinking?

Knowing how to code prepares you to deal with lawyers that say something is complex but then you verbally break it down into an if-elseif-else in 5m and they get flummoxed. And when you find a possible bug / loop-hole / fuzziness, they tell you they will need weeks to research it on your dime when it has all the complexity of a stack overflow post.

It's not always (or even usually) cluelessness or malice. Law is somewhat like code, except it's like the worst Aspect-Oriented Programming codebase you can imagine - the source in front of you is never the full story. They may need the extra time just to go through possible interactions with codes, precedents, official interpretations, etc.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#75
post #8

Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations. Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learn…

A folksy saying to compliment your editorial: the only lawyer in town drives a Prius; once a competitor moves in, they both drive Bentleys.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#76
post #58
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although average wages are around 75k, wages of lawyers are two tiered, the majority settle around ~55k and then prominent lawyers who went to good schools and were groomed to become partners make over triple that [1]. So it is a lot like other professional white collar professions like accounting where there are huge amounts of extremely overworked people in entry level jobs who were suckered into the perceived secu…

> few that make partner and rake in decent cash, which is only like average FANG entry salaries What entry level FAANG pays partner salary [1]? I need to apply. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Sidley-Austin-Partner-Attor...

I should clarify, there is a pretty large split between big law and an typical career in law. Those that go into top (200) firms are starting as associates at ~190k [1] with partners making ~1mm [2] with a long tail end. However most others will follow a career trajectory starting around 60k [3], maybe less if they are public attorneys, moving towards ~150k [4] if they make partner in a smaller firm. Prospective lawyers are sold the big law dream but outside of that the career trajectory is a lot less enticing considering the upfront costs.

[1] https://www.nalp.org/0521research [2] https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/how-much-do-partners... [3] https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib [4] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/partner-attorney-salary-S...

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend was a lawyer for a few years. Shortly after we met she went to a bootcamp for coding, immediately got a new job, and now (a couple years later) makes something like 4x what she did as a lawyer. Of course she was doing contract work for a small local firm, but that was the best job she could find in the job market as it was.

I always wondered if studying law, also prepares your mind for coding. Lots of complex preconditions, trying to find clauses that catch all side effects - sounds familiar to me. So transitioning from law to coding is maybe "just" learning some programming language and technical details, but the mind is already somewhat prepared to the thinking?

I've taught code-lite tools to a bunch of repurposed analysts, and your idea tracks with my experience too.

Students that had an analytical perspective (e.g. from supply chain debugging) typically excelled.

Students from more fuzzy, language-based perspectives (e.g. marketing) had a lot more difficulty.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#78

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

Law is a well paying profession in general, insofar as many can make high five figures and low six figures. That’s good money for real life. You’re correct that only a relatively few people make the kind of money people think lawyers make, and the profession is highly segregated by education. Most people at my law school (northwestern) went on to a big firm job with a salary of $200k rising to $500k after 8 years. A few places lower on the ranking scales, at good public schools, it was more like 1 in 4.

I will quibble with your first point a bit. Law is a profession that attracts large numbers of people who default into it because they can’t think of what to do with their liberal arts undergraduate degree. It’s a demanding, detail oriented, analytical job, and many of those people become quite disillusioned with it.

For the kind of person who likes that sort of thing, however, it can be very rewarding. I’m a decade out of law school, and still enjoying the grind. So is my wife, snd most of the people I graduated with. I’ve got a STEM degree and was a programmer in a previous life, and enjoy the analytical aspect of law. It also combines an element of verbal advocacy and adversarial competition I found lacking in engineering.

I would certainly recommend my kids to go into the profession, at least my oldest who has the temperament for it. What personalities the younger two will have remains to be seen, but I would certainly counsel against them becoming lawyers out of inertia or because they got a useless undergraduate degree. (As an Asian parent, I have no compunction about insisting on STEM degrees for all of them!)

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#79

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help t…

I used to work as an attorney, quit to join a coding boot camp, transitioned to web development, and now I'm employed as a software engineer. When I was a lawyer, I bounced around a few different jobs--mostly in litigation. I started off as a public defender before moving on to private criminal defense, then doing some work as a legislative researcher, and finally ending my career in plaintiffs' civil rights litigati…

This is probably the best summary I've come across, particularly the true believers vs functional burnouts bit.

The only thing I'd add is that many (most?) lawyers are not only fundamentally uncreative and arrogant, but also weirdly insecure. They pick fights with each other over meaningless minutiae, simply in the pursuit of "winning". This not only means they're a massive pain in the ass to deal with, and it's also where a lot of the unnecessary expense comes from.

Re: Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

#80
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I did not study law, but I think I have a way easier time decoding laws and contracts, than my liberal arts peers.

Being mathematically inclined and having worked in software for a decade+ I'm also very good at understanding the complex laws and nuances for international travel in the age of COVID. I'm about to visit 3 countries and from my own research I feel like I'm the world's expert on the congressional bills and executive orders of these countries now (I'm only somewhat kidding) By the way, I'm a liberal arts graduate (but…

Modern software stacks are tall enough that the ability to find answers is a key skill.

My favorite interview question is to take something the interviewee doesn't know, toss a laptop in front of them, and ask them to see if they can find an answer. You learn a lot about a person from the way they search.

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