Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk • Hacker News Board

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#71

Post by sandworm101 » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

the_lonely_road wrote: post #31

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

I've been making my own, purely as a pipe-dream to have some hope of walking again, it's not easy but I'm hoping it'll be a better fit than consumer ones, and probably cheaper. I feel like we've made leaps and bounds in prosthetics this past decade but orthotics and exoskeletons haven't been following the trend for some reason. As an engineer I imagine there are some significant design constraints that make it hard b…

My understanding is its the same thing limiting everything else. Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a way to power anything for very long that doesn't have a cable attached to a wall attached to a power station. Honestly the ability for humans (and other living creatures) to just DO SO MUCH on just a little bio mass each day is astounding.

>> Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a way to power anything

There is progress. Japan has been developing assistance exoskeletons as an answer to elder care problems: power assist devices to allow not-strong people to lift/carry elderly people. Interestingly, much development has gone into pneumatic devices as they are inherently more waterproof than electric.

"In Japan, the commercialization of exoskeletons is already underway. Innophys, a startup founded in 2013 at the Tokyo University of Science, has already dispatched about 1,000 units across the country, in particular to Asahi-Sun, an elderly care supplier. Lighter than ActiveLink's AWN-03, Innophys' Exo-Muscle is a little less quick but offers more flexibility for a similar lifting capacity of 22 to 30 kilos (48 to 66 pounds). But Exo-Muscle uses an entirely different technology: compressed air, which is injected into rubber valves that inflate and contract."

https://worldcrunch.com/tech-science/an-aging-japan-turns-to...

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#72

Post by rhino369 » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #7

caturopath wrote: post #2

> "Ten years from now, there will be no, or far fewer, wheelchairs," he said. I wonder how much money he'll put on that.

I share your skepticism but I wouldn't question the conviction of a guy who built a company and worked on this project for 10 years to help his son walk again.

I hope he's wrong since my brother is quadriplegic, but I wouldn't bet on it. Either way, this guy is an inspiration.

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#73

Post by kelnos » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #68

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

I've been making my own, purely as a pipe-dream to have some hope of walking again, it's not easy but I'm hoping it'll be a better fit than consumer ones, and probably cheaper. I feel like we've made leaps and bounds in prosthetics this past decade but orthotics and exoskeletons haven't been following the trend for some reason. As an engineer I imagine there are some significant design constraints that make it hard b…

I think both exoskeletons and prosthetics suffer from similar issues. To reach affordability, you need unit volume. To get unit volume, you need an initial user segment capable of paying what such a device currently costs. In computing, for example, there's always someone willing to pay for bleeding edge, which then paves the way to price reduction. With these, there just isn't much daylight between prices where basi…

I imagine new medical tech is usually covered by insurance, which makes it possible for people to afford it initially (and even later, when the device is more at scale), but I expect it's really hard to get insurance companies (in the US at least) to consider covering new things, especially when there is a cheaper alternative.

I imagine an insurance company is heartless enough to believe that a much cheaper wheelchair is "good enough" and there's "no reason" to pay the hefty costs for an experimental exoskeleton.

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#74

Post by sillysaurusx » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

manmeet wrote: post #63

This is amazing. I built one to help my nephew walk, and now selling commercially ( http://trexorobotics.com ) I am fed-up at the lack of options available to individuals. People thought that everyone will get an exoskeleton and be able to walk with it everywhere. But the industry ran into many challenges. A big one that many dont understand is getting insurance coverage. The way the US healthcare system is designed,…

Talk about impactful work. I wonder how many lives you've changed.

Well done. This is something close to miracle tech, at least for the people wearing it.

I can't help but feel curious whether they're a viable alternative to wheelchairs, or if it's a temporary feeling (kind of like riding on a rollercoaster, in that you go and do it for the experience and then return to your normal life). But that's just my ignorance talking.

Also, fuck the US insurance system. You won't find many topics that make me talk that way, but as I get older it feels something closer to pure evil. I've met so many people who have been screwed over by that system (and personally experienced my share of it).

There's a woman I've been texting with who I met at a gas station. She was clearly in distress, so my wife and I offered her a ride home. To cut a long story short, she spent her fourth of july miserable, and when I raised the idea of getting prozac or some sort of antidepressant (my own "miracle tech"), she said "Oh, I used to be on that. I can't afford it because no insurance" and I practically flipped my phone onto the concrete. She could be living a normal and happy life.

I can't imagine how much worse it is for parents who otherwise need to spend $thousands for alternative solutions like this. If you can make it in any way affordable, it'll change countless lives, I'm certain.

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#75

Post by kelnos » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #61

justinclift wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the control method you've been using? eg for input to direct the actions

None, it's not the exact same problem in that I have control of my legs just not enough to walk with them or support my weight.

I think that maybe highlights another difficulty here: there isn't really a one-size-fits-all solution. Some people will need full support, and others will need more of an assist. Not sure both of those things can (or should) be served by the same device. But as soon as you have to build different things for different cases, that drives the cost up, both in R&D and in manufacturing (it's cheaper to build 1000 of one thing than 500 each of two things).

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#76

Post by chime » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

manmeet wrote: post #63

This is amazing. I built one to help my nephew walk, and now selling commercially ( http://trexorobotics.com ) I am fed-up at the lack of options available to individuals. People thought that everyone will get an exoskeleton and be able to walk with it everywhere. But the industry ran into many challenges. A big one that many dont understand is getting insurance coverage. The way the US healthcare system is designed,…

> So, from their perspective, a wheelchair and some pain meds can do the job easily.

And not even a good wheelchair. For my wife recently diagnosed with MS, they would only approve of a basic, featureless, uncomfortable one after I would pay the $3000 deductible plus 20% coinsurance. Instead, I got a light-weight folding electric wheelchair with nearly full-day worth of battery (15 miles), with a spare battery, adjustable headrest for $1300 off Amazon. Add an octopus-tripod fan with 10hr battery, golf-cart umbrella, bendable cane holder, bottle holder, and an A/C fan jacket for a total of $200 and now she is able to spend a few hours out with our kids at museums, aquariums, and zoos.

It was literally cheaper for me to buy all of this cash than try to spend 40+ hours getting insurance approval.

I absolutely love how practical and solid your product is. I cannot comment on the pricing because I have no idea what your costs/market is but if my kid needed $999/mo to walk, I would do literally anything to be able to afford it. Hopefully the costs keep coming down for those with a smaller budget. Good luck!

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#77

Post by chris_va » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

I am not a robotics expert, and I've always wanted to ask one...

Why do these designs always have the actuators mounted directly at the joints?

Why not have some high modulus yarn transfer the joint loads (ala a bike brake cable, say with high modulus aramid?)? One could keep the actuators near the center of mass (or a trolley that follows it around), and keep the suit fairly minimal.

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#78

Post by crummybowley » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #23

crummybowley wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think the OP was really talking about this individual case. Eg, this guy put his kid in a device that could kill him (maybe). Looking back at the videos from Boston Dynamics, a ton of effort is put in to the failure mode testing. I highly doubt 1) this is dynamic, 2) failure modes were considered much.

This individual case is a medical device company in France, not some garage hacker as the title might imply. No human (except the engineers on the down-low) will have stepped foot inside the device before a very late stage in the design, possibly requiring approval for human trials, at which point all those risks will have been assessed.

I stand corrected.

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#79

Post by mojomark » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

the_lonely_road wrote: post #31

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

I've been making my own, purely as a pipe-dream to have some hope of walking again, it's not easy but I'm hoping it'll be a better fit than consumer ones, and probably cheaper. I feel like we've made leaps and bounds in prosthetics this past decade but orthotics and exoskeletons haven't been following the trend for some reason. As an engineer I imagine there are some significant design constraints that make it hard b…

My understanding is its the same thing limiting everything else. Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a way to power anything for very long that doesn't have a cable attached to a wall attached to a power station. Honestly the ability for humans (and other living creatures) to just DO SO MUCH on just a little bio mass each day is astounding.

>...Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a way to power anything for very long that doesn't have a cable attached to a wall attached to a power station...

To be clear (not to be snide, just to improve clarity), increased power density is the ability to discharge energy in larger amounts in shorter time periods (think heavy lift olympians). Energy density is the ability to store large amounts of energy for longer periods of time (think long distance runner). Some applications, like cell phones are quite happy with high energy density, but relatively low power density. Others, like an battery-electric drill, need more power density but can offset the low energy density by swapping out batteries and having a rotable pull.

Great idealic batteries for this application would have both large energy and power desnity. I say this because people often overlook "batteries" that people don't refer to ass batteries because they generally don't come in a self-contained cell (they have subsystems that don't benefit much from cellular architectures). Case in point are Hydrogen fuel cells. I'm not saying their better than Li-ion, but they are for certain applications. Often H2 fuel cells are paired with Li-ion batteries or supper capacitors to provide improved power when transient energy bursts are needed. H2 fuel is stored in some tank - perhaps a pressure tank, perhaps in the form of Aluminum and water reaction, or for this application it may likely be some metal hydride that stores H2 'benignly'. However, to your point, even these metal hydrides have a lot of room and potential for improving energy density.

My only point here is that, cureently, the best answer may not be a single cellular battery, but some hybriid of energy storage technologies.

Re: Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk

#80

Post by jandrese » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

manmeet wrote: post #63

This is amazing. I built one to help my nephew walk, and now selling commercially ( http://trexorobotics.com ) I am fed-up at the lack of options available to individuals. People thought that everyone will get an exoskeleton and be able to walk with it everywhere. But the industry ran into many challenges. A big one that many dont understand is getting insurance coverage. The way the US healthcare system is designed,…

I had thought when the Segway came out that a wheelchair version would follow shortly afterward where a person without functional legs could get on a saddle and move around quickly and at a typical human height so things on shelves aren't such a problem.

Segway hit the market 20 years ago and it still has not happened. I get that there are a number of complications (getting on and off is a challenge), but it seems like it should be solvable. The technology has only improved over the years, especially the batteries. This should be doable.