70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll • Hacker News Board

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#71

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

tolbish wrote: post #24

underseacables wrote: post #6

This is interesting given the protests. As I understand it, San Francisco is generally considered to be a very liberal and progressive city. The politicians are generally considered to be very liberal and progressive. These are the same groups, however, that want to defund the police. I don’t get it. You can want both police reform, and policing, but without the police there’s not really anyone capable, trained, or j…

Police reform does not mean the police should not exist. It means the police should be reformed. So that is a strawman argument. Equating police reform with being anti-police plays right into propaganda.

[deleted]

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#72

Post by astrange » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

desine wrote: post #39

It's just a symptom of the neo-pseudo-scientific political system. I can find plenty of articles that "fact check" my gut instinct that deporting illegal immigrants who commit violent crime will reduce the violent crime. A cursory googling will remind me that SF's ban on handguns, licensed carry, and other gun restrictions protect me. After all, if I were in danger, the police average under 8 minutes response time on…

I've never seen anyone call Chesa Boudin "neoliberal" before. Actually I haven't even seen anyone call "neoliberal" policies not right-wing enough. Very innovative post.

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#73

Post by ceejayoz » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

m_ke wrote: post #68

pmalynin wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how about religious freedoms, reproductive rights and the feelings about LGBTQ folks? To add a little bit of context to the folks bellow: I actually am from Eastern Europe and consider myself rather lucky to have escaped it to Canada and the US. If you’re a good an American straight white male, with a lot of dollars then yea of course you’re going to have a pretty good time. But let’s not trivialize the issues he…

It's not an issue in Warsaw and most other major cities.

Hmm. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-22/polish-to...

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#74

Post by clra » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

fastball wrote: post #13

AussieWog93 wrote: post #4

I wonder what percentage of residents support the tax increases necessary to provide such services.

The problem is that taxes are already fairly high. Throwing more money at the problem is not going to fix these issues. Bad administration is bad administration no matter how much money you burn.

Exactly this. The city's budget was $6.4B in 2010, and $12.6B for 2021-2022, which is down from $13.7B for 2020-2021 (only because of Corona). That's a _doubling_ in a decade, and speaking somewhat subjectively as someone who's been here the entire time, all public services and the state of the streets have continued getting worse. Even if you don't buy that, it's absolutely certain that nothing has gotten better.

It's not clear how SF can escape the situation, but there are a few things that are absolutely certain, and one of them is that more money is not going to fix the problem. We need a different approach.

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#75

Post by NeverFade » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #46

NeverFade wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shoplifting to that extent - pouring the contents of several shelves into a garbage bag and taking off - threatens the sustainability of businesses. All these crimes have victims.

A crime can be non-violent without also being victimless.

True, but a person barging into a business with their bike, emptying several shelves into a garbage bag, then barging out, forcefully shoving everyone out of their way - that crosses into a borderline violent crime.

I would feel very unsafe if I was at the Wallgreens when that happened. The people in the video certainly felt unsafe as well.

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#76

Post by thathndude » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

pmalynin wrote: post #62

dougmwne wrote: post #44

I am currently in Warsaw. I have lived in SF. The quality of life is astoundingly different. There nearly zero visible homelessness people. There are low levels of crime and none visible. There are hardly any murders or gun crime. Not much property crime. There are quite a lot of police, but no brutality that I have heard of. I feel safe walking around at night. People have health care, higher education, and employee…

And how about religious freedoms, reproductive rights and the feelings about LGBTQ folks? To add a little bit of context to the folks bellow: I actually am from Eastern Europe and consider myself rather lucky to have escaped it to Canada and the US. If you’re a good an American straight white male, with a lot of dollars then yea of course you’re going to have a pretty good time. But let’s not trivialize the issues he…

Those are no doubt important, but isn’t that potentially the issue? Have those concerns distracted from basic livability efforts?

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#77

Post by smnrchrds » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #46

NeverFade wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shoplifting to that extent - pouring the contents of several shelves into a garbage bag and taking off - threatens the sustainability of businesses. All these crimes have victims.

A crime can be non-violent without also being victimless.

Yeah. Like all white collar crimes. Madoff had many victims, but the fraud was nevertheless a non-violent crime.

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#78

Post by prewett » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

tolbish wrote: post #24

underseacables wrote: post #6

This is interesting given the protests. As I understand it, San Francisco is generally considered to be a very liberal and progressive city. The politicians are generally considered to be very liberal and progressive. These are the same groups, however, that want to defund the police. I don’t get it. You can want both police reform, and policing, but without the police there’s not really anyone capable, trained, or j…

Police reform does not mean the police should not exist. It means the police should be reformed. So that is a strawman argument. Equating police reform with being anti-police plays right into propaganda.

Then they should say "reform the police" not "defund the police". If you "defund the police", they will cease to exist, since nobody will be paying them. It might or might not be what the "defund" people are actually want, but it is what they are saying, so it isn't really a strawman argument.

Personally, I assume people actually mean what they say, so I think it's more likely they just want to be "radical" and haven't thought things through at all (as OP pointed out).

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#79

Post by mnouquet » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #22

Chesa Boudin was elected in November 2019 on a progressive platform centered on ending mass incarceration. DA Boudin personally understands the impact of incarceration; both of his parents were incarcerated (for Murder) throughout his childhood and his father is still in prison. San Francisco residents deserve to reap the fruits of their Prophet.

Are you implying his parents are innocent from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Brink%27s_robbery ?

Re: 70% of San Francisco residents say quality of life has declined: poll

#80

Post by ergocoder » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #61

ergocoder wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petty and non-violent crime is only petty and non-violent because the victims don't fight back. I don't know what the solution is, but calling these petty/non-violent feels like an unfair take. A victim is often traumatized about this kind of experiences, but that is never taken into account. I feel San Francisco is such a screwed up place. But many would disagree with me. I don't live there anymore, but it seems peo…

i dont understand you at all - chesa boudin is in favor of letting all the "non violent" criminals you mention , to avoid jail time and prosecution. He's more of the same SF lawyer we had for decades , but on steroids? What is expected to change exactly?

Yeah but different stages require different attitudes.

10y ago, this wasn't an issue, so it was okay.

Now it is an issue.. but we double down on this same approach, which makes it even worse.

Sociological problem like this is tricky to solve. SF residents believe that restorative justice will eventually win in the end, so we should cheer for them to follow through with this experiment.

Whether it will work or not, we will all get to learn. For an outsider, we will get to learn without investing much.

I don't think it will work, but I'm not an expert here, and I would love to know the result of the experiment.