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Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

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Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because he's sponsored does not necessarily mean he's wrong: he's been beating this drum for many years before the sponsorships came. Sort by date and check out the potato quality videos from long ago, and you'll see the same principles being talked about. Though certainly, if you're going to do a build yourself, research any specific products to see if they meet your needs, functionally and monetarily. * He ten…

Yah, I'm not arguing that Matt is saying incorrect things, I'm saying his videos need extra scrutiny because he is sometimes using his videos for advertising and gives less than accurate portrayals of certain products. It looks like one his more egregious videos has been removed wherein he's reviewing types of siding and has some pretty laughable "tests" that he recreates inconsistently in order to prove fiber cement…

> Additionally, to my knowledge, Matt isn't originating any of these ideas, he's just implementing them.

He's fairly open about this. He was recently on the Essential Craftsman Podcast and he talks about trying to educate and pass on knowledge:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYG63Cb83sc

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#72

LEED sucks. This has been known for a long time. But instead of bashing it, we should be asking: is there an alternative? If not, how could we create one?

The Correct Answer™ is performance standards, which are incrementally improved over time.

How California became far more energy-efficient than the rest of the country

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/5/31/1864690...

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#73

The frustration I have with environmentalism is this. There's this enthusiasm for environmentalism that seems to be blind to outcome. A new standard for buildings, cars, circuit boards -- whatever -- is met with accolades. However, the opponents of such a standard clearly want the planet to die and suffer. It's time to listen to science! Then a decade later, the program is assessed, and found to be ineffective, and t…

There's a reason the modern environmental movement largely started in California.

Cadillac Desert, a history of modern water policy, will turn any one into a treehugger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Desert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Desert_(film)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2BSGQt2DU

The histories for air, land, and sea are similarly shocking, depressing.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#75
post #63

I once lived in a LEED certified apartment complex. Unfortunately, I do not recall the specifics of their certification. My hot water would never get hot enough. I realized the hot water heater had a device on it to limit how often heating occurred. I promptly disabled it and had normal hot water again. One of the other "green" aspects of the complex was that it only had compact car parking. However, the area I live…

> One of the other "green" aspects of the complex was that it only had compact car parking. I think this is one of the things that as I get older gets more and more grating. This 'nudge' is supposed to encourage you to use and buy a smaller car, but instead of you as an individual selecting the car most suited for your needs they've decided that only compact cars should be driven. So now if you have a big family (whi…

You're free to rent somewhere with larger parking spaces.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#76

The focus of buildings should be: 1. Keeping dry and bulk water out/away. 2. Being as air tight as possible.† 3. Controlling vapour. 4. Being well-insulated. * https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-t... † Air is exchanged in a controlled fashioned: filtered for pollen and other things, and then tempered with an HRV/ERV. Buildings do not need to 'breathe': * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIcrXut…

The problem with buildings with windows that don't open, is that the windows don't open. What do you do if you want to open the window?

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in an apartment in Toronto that is LEED certified. To be honest, it's not that great but for different reasons than you outlines. The insulation is too good and so the building is too warm all year round. My unit can easily be > 24C without any heating running even in winter.

Is it possible that all of your neighbors in your building have their heater on? This is what happened to me in a building in NYC. It would actually get so warm in the winter I would have to crack the window open or I would get a nose bleed.

That's by design!

See: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-05/the-curio...

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#78
TL;DR:

We have two primary findings. First, our estimates show no effect of LEED certification on average energy consumption measured in kBTUs/ft2. Second, the absence ofan effect seems to be driven by trade-offs across LEED attributes. Buildings with higherenergy scores have greater energy efficiency post-certification. Some other attributes, no-tably higher water scores, decrease energy efficiency post-certification. These trade-offs across LEED attributes seems to account for the absence of energy savings on average.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#79
It is comforting to see this discussion continues the great HN tradition of having a lively and wide-ranging debate about a complex scientific article or paper without ever bothering to read the article and paper.

This is a rather complex paper, so I perused it for about five minutes. As such I consider my self a one eyed man among a hoard of shouting extremely opinionated blind people, so you should all listen to me carefully and follow me as your leader.

And now that I have your attention I shall carefully summarize the paper so none of you have to undergo the indignity of perusing it for five minutes.

1. Leeds is not solely for energy efficiency but also for solving other environmental problems such as water use.

2. In buildings where the energy efficiency was the main problem to be solved, the leeds overhaul was actually effective at improving energy efficiency.

3. In buildings where water use was the main problem to be solved, the leeds process was also successful in reducing water use, but actually increased energy use. This is because the water reduction process invariably included complex electrical systems with a lot of sensors and control circuitry that ate up extra power.

4. Considering points 2. and 3. above when you add all the buildings up as a whole, on average energy use did not decrease after a leeds overhaul and certification.

My thinking here is that this does not mean LEEDS is a failure. The study shows that there was improvement in every building that underwent the certification, it is just that for some buildings energy wasn't the highest priority. In many parts of the US water use is much more important than energy efficiency.

So I am sure for many parts in the US it is a very good trade off to increase energy use for lower water use. (This would certainly be true for the entire southwest, at least).

But there is still a lot of room for improvement. The water preservation systems can themselves be made more energy efficient. At first glance, these systems do not do something that requires a lot of energy -- all they do is communication, sensing and opening or closing small water valves.

Generally speaking there is a lot to be desired of analog circuit design. Now that we are surrounded by always on always connected electrical devices, this is something we as a nation should start paying attention to. There are a lot of always on circuits that use 10 or 100 times the power they should, just because someone wanted so save 50c on parts or they simply did not how to properly design the thing.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#80
post #2

The biggest issue I see is that LEEDs allow for a building that looks like a big heat exchanger, and has zero heat insulation to certify for high power efficiency in a cold climate. Canada, and Toronto area had tons of LEEDs certed luxury condos being heated like no tomorrow in Winter. Things are even worse in Vancouver, but that's offset by milder weather. The opposite picture is there in hot climates. Building with…

Joseph Lstiburek talked about this(1) in talks going back to the early 2010s. He bitched about bike racks being worth a LEED point whereas good insulation wasn't really... (1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkfAcWpOYAA

Good insulation and isolation can also help substantially with privacy and tranquility. Good airflow can help human health and reducing externalizes that aren't well measured by a single building's certification.
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