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Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

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Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#31

Post by ceejayoz »

macinjosh wrote: post #23

I once lived in a LEED certified apartment complex. Unfortunately, I do not recall the specifics of their certification. My hot water would never get hot enough. I realized the hot water heater had a device on it to limit how often heating occurred. I promptly disabled it and had normal hot water again. One of the other "green" aspects of the complex was that it only had compact car parking. However, the area I live…

> My hot water would never get hot enough. I realized the hot water heater had a device on it to limit how often heating occurred.

My tankless water heater has a temperature limit (120 Fahrenheit), but it's to prevent children from getting scalded.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#32

Post by ceejayoz »

blacktriangle wrote: post #25
throw0101a wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because they heap regulation on the West while sending money to China and India who have no obligation to improve their environmental policy. Both China and India are signatories of the Paris Accords. They are aiming to meet their targets. The US, at least for the four previous years, wasn't even in the Accords and not trying to do much in that time. There are no regulations in the Accords, just a goal with regards…

Reducing them is great. Trusting China to self-regulate their emissions is the height of stupidity. Us paying China to then turn around and lie is even dumber yet. Want to reduce CO2? You'll need to embargo China and then start ramping up domestic regulation.

Reducing emissions by triggering World War Three is a plan, I suppose.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#33

Post by julianlam »

etimberg wrote: post #14
baybal2 wrote: post #2

The biggest issue I see is that LEEDs allow for a building that looks like a big heat exchanger, and has zero heat insulation to certify for high power efficiency in a cold climate. Canada, and Toronto area had tons of LEEDs certed luxury condos being heated like no tomorrow in Winter. Things are even worse in Vancouver, but that's offset by milder weather. The opposite picture is there in hot climates. Building with…

I live in an apartment in Toronto that is LEED certified. To be honest, it's not that great but for different reasons than you outlines. The insulation is too good and so the building is too warm all year round. My unit can easily be > 24C without any heating running even in winter.

Are you sure it's because of the insulation? Many condos are sweltering in the middle spring (even with heat off) because residents living on floors below yours crank the heat and it all rises.

When I lived in a condo (Bloor/Yonge), the situation was so bad (12th floor) that if it hit 12°C outside, I needed to turn on the A/C, which is awful from an environmental POV.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#34

Post by chrisabrams »

etimberg wrote: post #14
baybal2 wrote: post #2

The biggest issue I see is that LEEDs allow for a building that looks like a big heat exchanger, and has zero heat insulation to certify for high power efficiency in a cold climate. Canada, and Toronto area had tons of LEEDs certed luxury condos being heated like no tomorrow in Winter. Things are even worse in Vancouver, but that's offset by milder weather. The opposite picture is there in hot climates. Building with…

I live in an apartment in Toronto that is LEED certified. To be honest, it's not that great but for different reasons than you outlines. The insulation is too good and so the building is too warm all year round. My unit can easily be > 24C without any heating running even in winter.

Is it possible that all of your neighbors in your building have their heater on? This is what happened to me in a building in NYC. It would actually get so warm in the winter I would have to crack the window open or I would get a nose bleed.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#35

Post by omosubi »

LEED is a joke. My dad used to manage a large office building in chicago and the certification was done by the building management itself. The guy collecting the data asked all the tenants for the info and threw out all the reports that made the building look bad. They got leed certification.

I'm also for more efficient use of resources but I'm skeptical LEED actually improves this. Also, all those curtain walled buildings are hideous and destroy the built environment.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#36

Post by reedjosh »

julianlam wrote: post #33
etimberg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in an apartment in Toronto that is LEED certified. To be honest, it's not that great but for different reasons than you outlines. The insulation is too good and so the building is too warm all year round. My unit can easily be > 24C without any heating running even in winter.

Are you sure it's because of the insulation? Many condos are sweltering in the middle spring (even with heat off) because residents living on floors below yours crank the heat and it all rises. When I lived in a condo (Bloor/Yonge), the situation was so bad (12th floor) that if it hit 12°C outside, I needed to turn on the A/C, which is awful from an environmental POV.

This and most modern buildings are heated and cooled via a central heating/cooling system which distributes the hot/cold via water.

So, it may be even though you don't have the heat 'on' there is still hot water running through your apartment's heating system.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#37

Post by throw0101a »

blacktriangle wrote: post #25
throw0101a wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because they heap regulation on the West while sending money to China and India who have no obligation to improve their environmental policy. Both China and India are signatories of the Paris Accords. They are aiming to meet their targets. The US, at least for the four previous years, wasn't even in the Accords and not trying to do much in that time. There are no regulations in the Accords, just a goal with regards…

Reducing them is great. Trusting China to self-regulate their emissions is the height of stupidity. Us paying China to then turn around and lie is even dumber yet. Want to reduce CO2? You'll need to embargo China and then start ramping up domestic regulation.

I've always liked the term "not on my watch". It probably derives from the maritime world, but is useful in my sysadmin career.

In many (larger) organizations you cannot ensure everything is running smoothly all the time. But you can look after everything in your own (IT) wheel house.

As a Canadian I cannot do much about China's (or India's) action, but I can do stuff about what happens in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, where I live.

So I will push for progress where I can, with the things under 'my watch', because it is the right thing to do. Doing the right thing yourself is sometimes the only thing you can do.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#38

Post by mistrial9 »

I did a small project for one of the founders of the LEED standard. I am in favor of the project and lacking details right this minute so I won't argue its merits BUT I can say that ... building specs are super useful, at the right time. Changes to a building can be very difficult, time-consuming and expensive, amidst a business model in West that emphasizes short-term money flow constantly. It is hugely difficult to get building owners and their insurance companies, to agree to anything. So this fellow who happens to strongly identify with Stanford University, was a basket case of nerves and ego, with expensive office suite and lots of helpers who appear nervous. I myself laid out a technical argument for a proposed software design, and less than ten minutes in to it, it was clear that the guy was not listening, and then interrupted me to start basically having a fit about different project pressures.

My impression after the whole, small project was over was that this is a person who lives in a world of wealth and status, and has to interact with others like that, who do not get along, or are constantly "jousting" .. I believe this fellow means well in the largest ways, but really the feeling overall was more like some kind of Arab Sheik than tech business.. I want LEED and things like it to succeed. I think this is a terribly hard thing to get going in reality. I feel this guy had too much pressure and was sort of losing it in a way ..

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#39

Post by abakker »

throw0101a wrote: post #29
abakker wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain building materials need to breath. Buildings built with green wood which has more moisture than ambient, and buildings with cast concrete will shed water vapor for some time. If this can be managed, it is fine. Additionally, through all insulation there is an internal temperature gradient. If the there are discontinuities it is possible to get condensation when the temperature / dew point align just wrong. Th…

> Certain building materials need to breath. As explained in the linked video, they actually need to dry . This does not need to happen to the outside environment. IMHO, using the two terms (dry/breathe) interchangeably is causing confusion, as each has certain connotations in many people's minds. The person in that video lives in Austin, Texas, and when he builds or renovates structures he has a stand-alone, whole-h…

Here in Boulder County, new BuildSmart regulations will require new and renovated structures to pass a "Blower Door Test" Does Ontario not have any of those requirements for commercial or residential?

Agree on the continuous insulation. Very hard to do for Renovations. Fortunately in Colorado, it is so dry that the vapor barrier is slightly less important than in places like new england.

Re: Does LEED Certification Save Energy? Evidence from Federal Buildings

#40

Post by baybal2 »

reedjosh wrote: post #36
julianlam wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure it's because of the insulation? Many condos are sweltering in the middle spring (even with heat off) because residents living on floors below yours crank the heat and it all rises. When I lived in a condo (Bloor/Yonge), the situation was so bad (12th floor) that if it hit 12°C outside, I needed to turn on the A/C, which is awful from an environmental POV.

This and most modern buildings are heated and cooled via a central heating/cooling system which distributes the hot/cold via water. So, it may be even though you don't have the heat 'on' there is still hot water running through your apartment's heating system.

Yep, and this is why central control, along with temperature sensors make a giant lot of sense to prevent such situation.

A simple thermostat is not enough, and even a PID one will not do the job if external thermal influx is not in the model.

I once worked on a HVAC controller for hotels in Singapore, and other commercial venues which helped the hotel operator to save on HVAC by packing visitors more closely depending on occupancy.

This avoid paradoxical situations of it being chilling cold in some suites with zero aircon use when it is +30 outside because of an unlucky combination of HVAC settings in neighbouring suites.

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